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#480278 - 09/10/12 12:41 AM Satanism: Room for Reincarnation?
Dark_Mystery Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 3
From when I first became interested in satanism I have admired Anton Lavey's work. I found a lot in it that I agreed with. It explained a lot, it removed (the last remaining fragments of) my fear of the christian hell, and gave me a lot of confidence in my belief in the need for lack of faith-style religion. There is just that one little problem I have with it: Anton Lavey didn't believe in any kind of life after death.

Now, I think that this was not stupid of him, because from what I know, his life and his experiences would have lead him to think that, but to me it only seems logical that the experience after death would be reincarnation; furthermore I think that if he'd read what I've read and experienced what I've experienced, and thought about it the way I have, he'd might agree with me. Maybe, equally possibly, I'd agree with him if I knew what he knew. But from what I do know, reincarnation seems like the most likely possibility.

My reasoning for thinking this is thus:
Where was I before I was born?
If somewhere, the soul is immortal, since I have always been somewhere.
If nowhere, then where will I be where I die?
If somewhere, the soul is immortal, because I will always be somewhere.
If nowhere, then if I started out nowhere, I can come back, just as easily.

And then there's the thing about consciousness being an arrangement, like a house. But then, I rather think that I am the thing in the house.

My question then is, can I be a satanist and still believe this?

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#480281 - 09/10/12 01:01 AM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Dark_Mystery]
Dark_Mystery Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 3
Well, I would say, because the mystics of ages past discovered that they sounded so clever talking about reincarnation that some or maybe a lot of the people listening to them would believe anything they'd say. I can help a kid out with his or her math homework, and the s/he'll believe me if I say I'm a wizard or that there are monsters living in that closet or under my bed.

I'm talking about reincarnation by itself, that is, disconnected with any illogical or even logical ideas you might have about it or associate with it.

And who knows, maybe their past life's "king" didn't have the best karma after all!

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#480282 - 09/10/12 01:05 AM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Dark_Mystery]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1493
Loc: Center of my own Universe
I personally see a dream of reincarnation as the way of escapism. One cannot fully enjoy his or her life here and now so they start to dream of (better) next life.

Satanism as Religion is exception to others because of itīs carnal nature. We live fully here and understand our mortality. This understanding and acceptance of the obvious fact helps us to see the uniqueness of this one unique life and respect the possibility to exist right now, right here.

To your or anybody elseīs believes I will not take a stance, cause I personally want just live my life enjoying every minute rather than worry about next life. So I let master of this tradition to say his word. Next quote is taken from the Satanic Bible by Magus LaVey from chapter Life After Death Through Fulfillment Of The Ego:

Originally Posted By: Anton Szandor LaVey
The eastern mystic believes strongly in reincarnation. To a person who has virtually nothing in this life, the possibility that he may have been a king in a past life or may be one in the next one is very attractive and does much appease his need for self-respect. If there is nothing in which they can take pride in this life they can console themselves by thinking "there are alway future lives", It never occurs to the believer in reincarnation that if his father, grandfather, and great-grandfather, etc. had developed "good karmas" by their adherence to the same beliefs and ethics as his present ones-then why is he now living in privation, rather than like a maharajah?
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#480283 - 09/10/12 02:12 AM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Dark_Mystery]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10574
Loc: England
>> Where was I before I was born? <<

You didn't exist before you were born.


>> If nowhere, then where will I be where I die? <<

Nowhere. You'll be nowehere after you die.


>> If nowhere, then if I started out nowhere, I can come back, just as easily. <<


Eeeeeh?


This isn't rocket science. If you can't get to grips with the notion of a purely earthly existence, then no, Satanism is not for you.
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#480285 - 09/10/12 03:12 AM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Insurgent Offline
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Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 2318
Originally Posted By: Drake_Bamboozle
>>If you can't get to grips with the notion of a purely earthly existence, then no, Satanism is not for you.


I'd like to echo that.

The fallacy lies in thinking of "you" as a substance that is somehow a special property inside the body. No such organ exists. The body is not a vessel, it is the summation. Even your balls/ovaries impact the essential "you."

Deal with being meat.


Edited by Insurgent (09/10/12 03:14 AM)
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#480286 - 09/10/12 03:18 AM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Dark_Mystery]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11561
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Dark_Mystery
There is just that one little problem I have with it: Anton Lavey didn't believe in any kind of life after death.

In addition to what Citizen Janina posted, here are some other quotes from The Satanic Bible:
  • "Life is the great indulgence -- death, the great abstinence. Therefore, make the most of life -- HERE AND Now!"
  • "and your spirit -- your immortal spirit -- shall live, not in an intangible paradise, but in the brains and sinews of those whose respect you have gained"
  • "If people were able to divorce themselves from the stigma attached to personal ego-fulfillment, they would not need to play self-deceitful games such as belief in reincarnation as a means of satisfying their natural need for ego-fulfillment."

Quote:
My reasoning for thinking this is thus:
Where was I before I was born?

This is like asking where the internet was in 1950, or where a cake that I just baked now had existed a year ago. There was no "you" before you were born. Matter may have changed forms in order to accomplish the biological process of creating and developing your fetus, but again there was no "you".

Quote:
If somewhere, the soul is immortal, since I have always been somewhere.

Non sequitur. Even if we go along with your first premise, that still doesn't necessarily follow from what you wrote.

Quote:
If nowhere, then where will I be where I die?

The same as it was before. There will be no "you" in a physical sense, just the cake I made no longer exists after it's eaten.

Quote:
If somewhere, the soul is immortal, because I will always be somewhere.

Again, non sequitur. There's no reason to think that just because your consciousness somehow existed before you were born and/or can exist afterwards, that it's always been there. More importantly, there's no real reason to think that anything like a "soul" exists:


Quote:
And then there's the thing about consciousness being an arrangement, like a house. But then, I rather think that I am the thing in the house.

Throughout most of human existence, it certainly seemed that way to humans. People thought the consciousness "spirit" was something separate from the "flesh" of the body. But as the Satanic Bible states (and as we also know from science), there is no "spirit" separate from the carnal; it is only the carnal. Consciousness is the name we give to a system of many simultaneous biochemical processes firing off in the human brain.

Quote:
My question then is, can I be a satanist and still believe this?

You should ask yourself why it's so important for you to believe that your consciousness is some separate, immaterial entity. Perhaps you just haven't taken the time to research some of the biochemical and neurological science under what makes "consciousness". But quite often I find that a person's personal need to believe in an afterlife often traces back to unsatanic motivators.
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#480289 - 09/10/12 06:57 AM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Dark_Mystery]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
I would not say that you can be a Satanist and believe in reincarnation. No. For the time being, at least, it's a spiritual pipe dream. Granted, you can be a Satanist and leave room for the possibility that just about anything can happen, though with an eye on rational, probabilistic nature.

Judging by what I have seen, reincarnation just doesn't happen.

Or, maybe, it does happen all the time, in which case, I'd liken it a fate as good as death.

To put it another way... I don't want to be a baby again. I don't want to start all over again. I like where I'm at right now as a 30-something. If I somehow reincarnated from a "previous life" the day I was born, then reincarnation didn't benefit the "previous me", because best as I can tell, I have no memory of any previous life to benefit from.

Reincarnation doesn't lead to vital existence.

Now, let's say you prove reincarnation... You die, you are born, you remember your previous life, and you can somehow use those lessons learned in this new life.

Then what use have you for Satanism or any other religion? That whole issue becomes moot, I think.

Reincarnation is not an empowering modus operandi when you really look at it.
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#480295 - 09/10/12 09:13 AM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: TheAbysmal]
thorn9 Offline


Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 119
I know that famous Church of Satan member King Diamond believes that we live several lives and has explained in great details why he believes this.

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#480297 - 09/10/12 09:39 AM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: thorn9]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
I don't know Kind Diamond. But here's the prime reason that incarnation is fundamentally incompatible with Satanism:

To believe in reincarnation means that you accept a mind/body divide. This ostensible division is the primary cause of a fractured psyche, as the perceived separation between mind and body causes one to exalt the mind, and denigrate the body.

For Satanists, there is only the carnal. We are only our bodies. Words like "mind" and "spirit" are used to describe our emotional thoughts. But we are, fundamentally, animals of flesh.

To entertain that there is a separation between mind and body is directly counter to Satanism.

I would go even further and state that, just like the idea of a heavenly afterlife, ideas like reincarnation are appealing because of an unease with one's life, right here, right now. The moment one fundamentally accepts, without lofty ideas of an immortal soul, that when one dies we are all worm food, and nothing more, you can either be terrified or liberated. It's a choice, really, to live in the now and accept it or constantly be distracted by spiritual pipe dreams because of the underlying crippling fear of death.

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#480298 - 09/10/12 09:44 AM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: thorn9]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1493
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: thorn9
I know that famous Church of Satan member King Diamond believes that we live several lives and has explained in great details why he believes this.



"Religionists have kept their followers in line by suppressing their egos. By making their followers feel inferior, the awesomeness of their god is insured. Satanism encourages its members to develop a good strong ego because it gives them the self-respect necessary for a vital existence in this life."
-Anton Szandor LaVey
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#480299 - 09/10/12 09:50 AM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Janina]
thorn9 Offline


Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 119
Agree or not King Diamond believes strongly in that and he is a Satanist and was very good friends with Anton LaVey and the last time I checked Anton LaVey is the one who founded Satanism so if he has no issues with the beliefs of King Diamond and gave him eternal membership then that is good enough for me.

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#480300 - 09/10/12 09:57 AM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: thorn9]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
Yes, Anton LaVey founded Satanism. And yes, I suppose he knew Diamond.

But what LaVey states about reincarnation is in opposition to what Diamond claims (or, more accurately, what you claim he claims) about reincarnation.

And who says LaVey had no issues with what Diamond said? I never met either man, and presumably, neither have you. So let's not assume we know what they thought. What we do know is what LaVey wrote. And he wrote that humans are only carnal.

You can disagree with this. Just don't try to call it Satanism.

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#480301 - 09/10/12 10:01 AM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Zaftig]
thorn9 Offline


Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 119
I am just saying that King is a member in the Church of Satan and he and Anton LaVey did know each other. And I do know what King believes in as he has been very open about it in interviews and in live fan chats that he did a year ago where yes I did in fact talk to him as did others.

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#480302 - 09/10/12 10:07 AM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Zaftig]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1493
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: Zaftig
Yes, Anton LaVey founded Satanism. And yes, I suppose he knew Diamond.

But what LaVey states about reincarnation is in opposition to what Diamond claims (or, more accurately, what you claim he claims) about reincarnation.

And who says LaVey had no issues with what Diamond said? I never met either man, and presumably, neither have you. So let's not assume we know what they thought. What we do know is what LaVey wrote. And he wrote that humans are only carnal.

You can disagree with this. Just don't try to call it Satanism.



I agree with Witch Zaftig completely, but I would like to add few opinions here. First, like Witch already said, it is useless to use examples from persons whom you really do not know. let these people talk for themselves. We know what LaVey wrote in Satanic Bible and thatīs the prior dogma of Satanism.

Second, if we do not know what was the relationship between these two men we should not discuss about it. It is not our business to take a stance on it. It is their business!

I have many times wondered why so many want to adopt the label Satanism though they do not believe in our teachings. Maybe it is cooler to call oneself to Satanist than Buddhist or Christian and for that reason they want to find out any possible explanations to hold on the term.

Satanism is codified by Magus LaVey and it is all there in the Satanic Bible. If you canīt stand with it you should not call yourself Satanist at all!
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#480303 - 09/10/12 10:12 AM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Janina]
thorn9 Offline


Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 119
I am just saying if Anton LaVey has no issues with King's beliefs then that is all that matters.

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