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#480318 - 09/10/12 11:55 AM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Dark_Mystery]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
The flawed premise is in your last line: "If I started out nowhere, I can come back, just as easily".

The fallacy here is in treating "nowhere" as a place, and your soul as persisting when it goes "there".

If you were truly "nowhere" before you were born, then you did not exist. You didn't "come from" there in the sense that a thing that's in one place comes from there to another place. You would have begun to exist whereas before you were not something at all.

Similarly, if you are nowhere when you die, it means you cease to exist. When once you were, then you are not. You don't "go" there and can't come back "from" there, because nowhere is not a "there". It's simply the word we use to designate the circumstance of something not existing.

It's hypothetically possible for something that once existed, but has ceased to exist, to exist again, either in the same form or a different form. I mean, the second instance is arguably a different thing, but perhaps a case could be made that it's the same thing. However, there is absolutely no way to make this hypothetical situation plausible, no evidence that can motivate it, in the case of human existence. You're relying on verbal legerdemain to fill in the gaps of deductive reasoning and empirical evidence.
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#480319 - 09/10/12 11:57 AM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: thorn9]
Chaos_Sedated Offline
CoS Priest

Registered: 09/26/06
Posts: 255
Loc: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: thorn9
I am just saying if Anton LaVey has no issues with King's beliefs then that is all that matters.


That's the problem, you're "just saying." But you don't know. You don't know that Petersen (King Diamond) had discussed his belief in reincarnation with LaVey, so therefore you cannot say that LaVey "had no issue" with his beliefs. If Petersen holds true to those beliefs then that is his business, but it does not pertain to Satanism.


Edited by Chaos_Sedated (09/10/12 11:58 AM)
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#480320 - 09/10/12 12:13 PM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Dark_Mystery]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
QUICK EDIT: This was in reply to Thorn9. Quick Reply caught me with my pants down again.

* * *

You're making an assumption that Dr. LaVey had no issues with King Diamond's--to take it at face value--beliefs in reincarnation.

That could be true. I don't rightly know any better than you. Perhaps, though, he did take issue with them and simply never bothered to speak or write about it directly.

One thing I've gleaned in my studies of Satanism is that Dr. LaVey was extraordinarily adept at dealing with people. I find it quite possible--though I'm merely speculating--that Dr. LaVey may never have made a spectacle of King Diamond's beliefs in reincarnation because it simply made sense not to do it, at least in the context of whatever bond were had between the two men.

What can be said with much surety is what Dr. LaVey did write on the subject of reincarnation or afterlife in his books and essays.

Fundamentally, I do not think that "King Diamond believes in reincarnation, is a Satanist, and talked with Dr. LaVey" really bears on Dark Mystery's question. If one really sits down, examines, and judges the ramifications of reincarnation, it's a rather lifeless proposition.

But, perhaps providing actual examples of what King Diamond says on the subject of reincarnation might prove at least more useful in the discussion.


Edited by TheAbysmal (09/10/12 12:15 PM)
Edit Reason: Damn Quick Reply!
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#480321 - 09/10/12 12:19 PM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: thorn9]
Insurgent Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 2318
Originally Posted By: thorn9
I am just saying if Anton LaVey has no issues with King's beliefs then that is all that matters.


You're making entirely too many assumptions about what they spoke of, how often they met, how deep their mutual understanding was, that King Diamond believed in this at the time or didn't change his mind in later years, among many other assumptions.

All that matters is to read the books, understand them and actually reflect them.

If what any "rockstar" says or does misses the mark of what is in those books then they miss the mark. Behaviorally or intellectually, they miss the mark. What an honorary rockstar member of the Church of Satan says does not define, dispute or deny any aspect of Satanism whatsoever.

There is really nothing else to say on either King Diamond or reincarnation in Satanism.

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#480323 - 09/10/12 12:40 PM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Zaftig]
DCLXVI Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 07/13/06
Posts: 1064
Loc: U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Zaftig
But what LaVey states about reincarnation is in opposition to what Diamond claims (or, more accurately, what you claim he claims) about reincarnation.


AND, who is to say that what King Diamond "said" about reincarnation is really what he believed? Might it not have been just "part of the act?"

Just as Vincent Damon Furnier was NOT Alice Cooper except on stage, King Diamond's stated beliefs may have been just part of what he wanted to project as part of his image.
Just as Witch Zaftig stated, I never met the man to talk to him. So, I will never know.
And as far more knowledgable people have stated here, believing in any spiritual pipe dream is about as far from Satanic thought as anyone can get.
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#480325 - 09/10/12 12:50 PM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Insurgent]
DCLXVI Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 07/13/06
Posts: 1064
Loc: U.S.A.
Quote:
You're making entirely too many assumptions about what they spoke of, how often they met, how deep their mutual understanding was, that King Diamond believed in this at the time or didn't change his mind in later years, among many other assumptions


Exactly! Who knows what Herr Doktor and Peterson talked about?
What matters (to me any way) is what Dr. La Vey wrote and said about the subject HIMSELF.

And, as you intimated, many celebrities will say ANYTHING to get their name in the tabloids. "Any publicity is good publicity!"
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"Churches may close and old shepherds may die, but the herd will always be the herd."
Reverend Bill


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#480329 - 09/10/12 01:35 PM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Chaos_Sedated]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1491
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: Chaos_Sedated
Originally Posted By: thorn9
I am just saying if Anton LaVey has no issues with King's beliefs then that is all that matters.


That's the problem, you're "just saying." But you don't know. You don't know that Petersen (King Diamond) had discussed his belief in reincarnation with LaVey, so therefore you cannot say that LaVey "had no issue" with his beliefs. If Petersen holds true to those beliefs then that is his business, but it does not pertain to Satanism.


I tried to explain this same, but you stated it so well.

Insurgent had a point in his post. What some Rock musician says is not important here. Like I and many others have already pointed. The dogma we follow is in the Satanic Bible. It is not in words of king Diamond no matter is he member or not. LaVey codified Satanism, not King Diamond.

Secondly like Witch Zaftig pointed, if/when we really do not know personally what was going on with these two gentlemen we should not take a stance to whole questions just because we happen to like or dislike some musician.
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#480331 - 09/10/12 01:44 PM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Janina]
thorn9 Offline


Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 119
If Kings beliefs are against Satanism then why does Peter Gilmore still mention him in interviews as being a member in the Church of Satan? I mean if King is lying about what he believes then fine, but he sounded very sincere to me and every one else when he was doing his live fan chats last year while recovering from his health issues. But even many years ago he talked about how his haunted apartment in Denmark was the reason he decided to study the occult and eventually found the Satanic Bible and talked about it in interviews which is why Anton LaVey invited him to the Black House and gave him eternal membership.

But I guess all of that were things he made up as well then OK

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#480332 - 09/10/12 01:52 PM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: thorn9]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1491
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: thorn9
If Kings beliefs are against Satanism then why does Peter Gilmore still mention him in interviews as being a member in the Church of Satan? I mean if King is lying about what he believes then fine, but he sounded very sincere to me and every one else when he was doing his live fan chats last year while recovering from his health issues. But even many years ago he talked about how his haunted apartment in Denmark was the reason he decided to study the occult and eventually found the Satanic Bible and talked about it in interviews which is why Anton LaVey invited him to the Black House and gave him eternal membership.

But I guess all of that were things he made up as well then OK


You know,
King Diamond is not the issue here at first place. I have heard you invoke to King Diamond as your authority few times earlier,but he is not our authority.

I mean, I could say any nonsense to anybody and then start the issue that cause I am the member of CoS this or that view or believe is true. I however am not authority to define anything cause Satanism is like it has been stated by Magus LaVey. With same basic logic King Diamond is not authority to define the meaning of Satanism no matter is he member or not. Satanism is (once more) codified by LaVey, not King Diamond!
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#480333 - 09/10/12 01:56 PM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Janina]
thorn9 Offline


Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 119
I know LaVey codified Satanism I am the one who pointed that out which is why many people not just myself found it interesting that he gave King eternal membership when he has the beliefs that he does.

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#480334 - 09/10/12 02:37 PM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: thorn9]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
King Diamond is an entertainer. He sells his own brand of entertainment just as others do. How he markets this is his business and he has been successful at doing it (Satanic). What entertainers say is one thing but the level the entertained take to the heart is another.

All the answers you seek are in the material.
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´┐ŻLove is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.´┐Ż
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#480340 - 09/10/12 03:48 PM Reincarnation's Logic Flaws [Re: Dark_Mystery]
Mason_Rust Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/25/02
Posts: 1780
Loc: Michigan, USA
Others have already given some great replies (Bill_M and Reprobate, particularly), so I would just add a few problems with the logic of reincarnation.

If the reincarnation you have in mind involves the idea of karma also determining the next life being a better or worse one, that screams the idea of a higher being. Something would need to "judge" who goes where, and set rules for what is right and wrong, commendable and condemable. This is obviously not compatible with Satanism. When we say that there is no god (other than when we choose to recognize ourselves as one) we don't mean just a Christian god, but any external judge of our actions.

Next, if we are just talking about reincarnation from the idea of a resultant death leading to a new life, might I point out that the human population is growing. This is at odds with a concept where lives are recycled. If instead of just humans, we look at other life populations, that too has grown since the beginning of life on the planet.

Reincarnation is just another idea that the desperate need in order to deal with (i.e. ignore) their mortality. Satanists are carnal beings who celebrate how life really is. We don't invest in pipe dreams, or entertain fantasies that somehow let us still live on. Certainly, as lovers of life, we'd LOVE for that to be true, but we are too realistic to devote any time in believing in such a concept when there is no evidence of it.

Enjoy that you ARE alive NOW! Make the most of it!

Even IF reincarnation does happen (really big, huge, HUGE if!) then there is a definite deletion of the memory of past lives, and thus YOU have been extinguished. If you are reborn, but don't remember your past life whatsoever, that is essentially the same thing as just a new person being born. The two hold no connection.
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#480342 - 09/10/12 03:57 PM Re: Satanism: Room for Reincarnation? [Re: Dark_Mystery]
anna Offline


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 219
Loc: Poland
It is good that you managed to overcome your fear of hell. There is just one thing for you to ponder. You say you do not believe in hell but believe in reincarnation. Is there any difference? I mean...How can you be sure that your afterlife will not be worse than that which your Christian teachers threatened you with. You might be reborn as a flea or a cockroach or some other disgusting insect. It would be a nightmare as horrile as burning in hell or even worse, unless you think that the life of worms is not that bad. Some of them get free food and I read somewhere that cockroaches even like drinking beer. grin

Do not get me wrong. I do not mean to offend you or something. I am just curious. Many people who believe in reincarnation see only the bright side of it. However, the concept of punishment is there too. And being reborn over and over again is also a punishment. So how this hell is better or worse than Christian hell?
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