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#482376 - 11/03/12 05:53 PM immortality and ethics, are you ready?
john hunter Offline


Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 28
If dramatic life extention technologies were to become available to the human race, what effect would that have on the various modus operandi currently in operation on this planet?
What sorts of changes could be postulated?
What sort of comparisons or differences could we expect?
What sorts of problems could we expect that would have to be overcome?

What would the mechanisms of the perfect immortal society look like,
in your oppinion, hypotheticly speaking?

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#482377 - 11/03/12 06:17 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: john hunter]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
You're asking a question that's both 100% speculative and would require several hundred pages to explore fully.

What do I personally think would happen? Either:

a) If everyone somehow has this technology, overpopulation will lead to constant strife and conflict, resulting in war - and death.

b) If not everyone has this technology, the have-nots will go utterly apeshit and even more people will die.

Just seems obvious to me, going against the grain of four billion years of biology is going to get ugly.
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#482379 - 11/03/12 06:50 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: john hunter]
Johann Schmueser Offline


Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 5
Loc: Ontario
Seems to me that things are going precisely that way, if the elections in the United States and the political climate here have are any measure of it. We are about to implode on our own sh it here, because we cannot work together across party and political lines. The divide is very distressing to those of us who have enjoy the diversity and richness of our multicultural and pluralistic society.

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#482380 - 11/03/12 06:55 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: john hunter]
Johann Schmueser Offline


Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 5
Loc: Ontario
Hypothetically, the marginalized will rise up and demand what has been taken from them, or they will be segregated to the corpeortate interests whose greed and power wrested it from their hands over the last hundred years. The prospect for the world is a bloody one no matter how these matters work themselves out or not matter who wins in the end. Personally, it would be a good time for my wife and I to return to Canada if such violent upheavals begin in the USA.

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#482382 - 11/03/12 06:57 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: Johann Schmueser]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Personally, it would be a good time for my wife and I to return to Canada if such violent upheavals begin in the USA.

Why? Assuming you're repying to me, are you postulating that only Americans will opt into such measures, and Canadians will naturally avoid life extension? That sounds...hilarious.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#482383 - 11/03/12 06:59 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Quaark Offline

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Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8697
Or, given that virtual reality simulations, robotics, pharmacological sciences, etc, will no doubt be extremely advanced, people will choose to live out their immortality in virtually sealed individual total environment chambers underground, given that there is no land shortage if one thinks three dimensionally.

Think just 100 stories deep, and the planet could support a trillion little immortal drugged zombies.

The number one fantasy will of course be having sex with God.

wink
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The thermal conductivity of helium II is greater than that of any other known substance, a million times that of helium I and hundred of times that of copper. This is because heat conduction occurs via a quantum mechanism.

Second sound is a quantum mechanical phenomenon in which heat transfer occurs by wave-like motion, rather than by the usual mechanism of diffusion. Heat takes the place of pressure in normal sound waves. This leads to very high thermal conductivity. It's known as "second sound" because the wave motion of heat is similar to the propagation of sound in air.

Sound waves are fluctuations in the density of molecules in a substance; second sound waves are fluctuations in the density of phonons. Second sound can be observed in any system in which most phonon-phonon collisions conserve momentum. This occurs in superfluids and in dielectric crystals when Umklapp scattering is small.

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#482385 - 11/03/12 07:01 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: john hunter]
Johann Schmueser Offline


Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 5
Loc: Ontario
Shit no. I am telling you that with a sick and aging wife, it would be bast to face issues in Canada; with my family to care for and my people to strengthen.

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#482386 - 11/03/12 07:06 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: Quaark]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Taking that fantasy to the logical extreme, it would be prudent to remove people's brains as soon as medical technology permits, or rather, trim their bodies away from their brains. This would minimize the nutrients required to sustain life in this perpetual-virtual-reality scenario and maximize the number of lives sustainable, as well as cut back on necessary facilities, like waste disposal (all you'd need is a filtration system on your nutrient delivery machine).

Of course, by that time spambots will have reached such a stage that you actually cannot tell them from a real person, and the news will occasionally run features on innocent people who unknowingly married an ad bot, including Jerry Springer interviewing the bot in front of a live studio audience.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#482387 - 11/03/12 07:14 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
john hunter Offline


Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 28
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
You're asking a question that's both 100% speculative


I would like for this to remain well understood by all participents in this conversation.

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#482388 - 11/03/12 07:23 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: john hunter]
john hunter Offline


Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 28
so it is generaly speculated so far that natural selection would have a field day in the event of... such an event.

what I am interested in is the characteristics of the survivors.


one problem that would most likely occure within a group of those who have received the technology, would be the fact that the longer one lives, the better they get at what they do, and the longer they have to get siriously pissed off at one of their associates,
and/or their authorities.


Edited by john hunter (11/03/12 07:26 PM)

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#482392 - 11/03/12 08:29 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: john hunter]
Zeviander Offline


Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 26
Loc: Canada
I am not quite sure this is a question of ethics. As Hagen von Tronje already pointed out, the technology would become just another method of contention between groups (the Have's, Have-not's and the Don't-want's), and I think it should be implied that it probably would never be universal.

As a Satanist, would I choose to become biologically immortal (despite it's likely impossibility given the decompositional nature of organic material)? Doubtful, to be very honest. Eternity is a very long time, and as a biological system, my capacity would likely be reached at some point (the brain contains a limited number of neurons for example, so memory would be limited).

Certainly, I would wish to have my life extended to a significantly long period (a thousand years seems like a good, round number), but to exist infinitely? I could not even fathom such a concept. It would mean I would outlive the Earth, the solar system, and even the universe (assuming it has an "end").

I think a better, more condensed version of this topic, revolving possibly around the ethics of medical technology (such as stem cell research) extending human life, reliably, another 50 or 100 years would be much easier to explore and discuss. However, if we are all learned individuals, we already know the major player's position on these issues.
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#482395 - 11/03/12 10:01 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: john hunter]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12410
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
No one has a better track record for successfully predicting future events than Ray Kurzweil.

In this brief interview with Time Magazine, he addresses many of your questions very directly.


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#482426 - 11/04/12 12:39 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: Zeviander]
Insurgent Offline
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Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 2303
Quote:
Eternity is a very long time, and as a biological system, my capacity would likely be reached at some point (the brain contains a limited number of neurons for example, so memory would be limited).


There's no reason why in such a technologically advanced future that excess human memory couldn't be stored on "expansion drives" of some sort. These memories would be instantly accessible in the very same way that current memories are accessible, if not more accurately; even triggered without conscious will but via association.

I think you're applying modern limitations to speculative future technologies.

Quote:
Certainly, I would wish to have my life extended to a significantly long period (a thousand years seems like a good, round number), but to exist infinitely? I could not even fathom such a concept. It would mean I would outlive the Earth, the solar system, and even the universe (assuming it has an "end").


Agelessness does not prevent death.

On society and agelessness:

By the time we even reach the point of this kind of technology we will have already begun to explore population control in a polite and feasible manner. This will begin at about the time that AHCs truly hit the market, resulting in the eventual abolition of labor as we've known it. Population requirements will be vastly reduced.
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#482432 - 11/04/12 02:43 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: john hunter]
Azeri Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 05/17/10
Posts: 216
Loc: Hell
My idea on eternal life is it certainly
possible through science at some point.
DNA can be stored.
A new body for all who want forever.
I think the possibility is exciting and can be
done some day.
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#482434 - 11/04/12 02:48 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: Azeri]
Bill_M Offline
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Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11460
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Azeri
My idea on eternal life is it certainly possible through science at some point. DNA can be stored. A new body for all who want forever. I think the possibility is exciting and can be done some day.

I'm more than my DNA. A genetic clone of myself wouldn't have my memories, knowledge, personality, etc. so I'd hardly call that some sort of extension of my life. Even if I believed that, there's no telling whether or not the next genetic clone of myself would think the same way and would want the line to continue.
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#482437 - 11/04/12 03:51 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: john hunter]
john hunter Offline


Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 28
Regardless of the possible technologies that might be employed, or the extent of the extention...

my interest in this subject is more on the topic of the evolution of the human software, (as opposed to the hardware)


What sort of exotic family arrangments might ultimately pop up or become the norm? These days 20 years is considered long.

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#482443 - 11/04/12 06:36 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: john hunter]
Azeri Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 05/17/10
Posts: 216
Loc: Hell
I am not talking clone. I am saying DNA in another body instead of the body the person died in, I feel is possible to do some day. Also, I think the person can be brought back alive as that person not a clone.
What are all the steps I don't know but I do feel people who want to live forever will in the future.
Again, DNA is needed,tissue samples, preserve the whole body.take on or buy another body? I don't knw or have all the answers but I do belive one day life will eternal for those who plan ahead.
It in deed will take a lot of planning on the persons part.
My bigger question is life eternal sounds grand but is the bank account going to be big enough?
one more thing, I don't concern myself that this world will last forever, but I do think in the future human kind will live on another plandet, and not on this planet.
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Edgar Allen Poe.


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http://vampiretemple.com/vampirechallenge.html

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#482497 - 11/06/12 01:54 AM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: Azeri]
Janina Offline
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1406
Loc: Center of my own Universe
As Satanist I think it is very important to understand the nature of life. That everything which born have to die as well. Only by completely understanding this fact we can really value this one and only life we have, and do the living right here and right now!

I think that some kinda evolution between man and machine will in future (if we do not destroy our specie before that) connect mans mind to machine giving his consciousness some degree of immortality by "melting" the consciousness to be part of matrix. Little bit like Borgs in Star Trek individuals will stop to be individuals and become part of the machine. This however will not give us immortality as separate individuals, but we still have only one change to experience individuality as purely subjective experience. After the one experience of subjective individuality our minds will become to be as part of vaster unity.
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#482499 - 11/06/12 02:43 AM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: Janina]
Unknown Offline


Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1644
Loc: 611 Calif. St.
Quote:
As Satanist I think it is very important to understand the nature of life. That everything which born have to die as well.


If you had a heart attack right now and a medical response team was capable of saving you, would you turn them down?
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#482501 - 11/06/12 03:06 AM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: Unknown]
Janina Offline
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1406
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: Unknown
Quote:
As Satanist I think it is very important to understand the nature of life. That everything which born have to die as well.


If you had a heart attack right now and a medical response team was capable of saving you, would you turn them down?


I donīt know what does this question of yours have to do with my understanding of lifeīs instability, but I guess Iīll answer to it anyway.

No, I would not turn them back cause I would very much like to continue my life as long as it is possible. However, I am not fantasizing that death would somehow make an exception with me and I would live for ever. I have been born, I will die, after I die the person called me will vanish to emptiness. Still, as long as I am living I will continue hanging on it enjoying every possible minute of my life!
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#482502 - 11/06/12 04:17 AM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: Janina]
Unknown Offline


Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1644
Loc: 611 Calif. St.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding your statement.

That everything which born have to die as well.

It sounds like you are implying that we as humans have to die as in we must die in order to enjoy life now.

This simply isn't true because you can potentially die however medical advances prevent death and you still enjoy life. If you feel we must die then perhaps you would not be so quick to accept help for your own life to continue? Life is the great indulgence after all.

So in the future if they developed a way to prevent heart attacks then why wouldn't you accept that medical benefit in order to not die? Would you really enjoy life any less? I doubt it.
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#482503 - 11/06/12 04:27 AM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: Unknown]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1406
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: Unknown
Perhaps I am misunderstanding your statement.

That everything which born have to die as well.

It sounds like you are implying that we as humans have to die as in we must die in order to enjoy life now.



Like you said yourself, you misunderstood my statement. What I mean is that understanding the mortality of human animal helps us to enjoy our lives as much as possible here and now. Cause we are not living in spiritual pipedreams about heavenly glory or eternal existence, we realize that this is our day of glory and do the best we can to enjoy it.

Dreaming of rebirth, eternal life or heaven easily turns our minds away from this moments reality which easily turns us away of living fully now. For that reason I think it is more useful to live now than dream of future where to live!
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#482504 - 11/06/12 08:27 AM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: Janina]
Unknown Offline


Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1644
Loc: 611 Calif. St.
Thanks for clarifying.
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#482566 - 11/09/12 07:10 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: Unknown]
JDBones Offline


Registered: 01/27/12
Posts: 102
I just wrote something on this topic at one of my social media accounts, so I'm just gonna quote... myself:

"I can't understand why most people are so terrified by the idea of prolonguing human life via scientifical advantages. Yes, the idea of having micronic cables, implants and machines inside of me, or having certain body parts replaced by their mechanical equivalents also seems odd to me now and it might even feel rather unpleasant to imagine that one would voluntarily subject themselves to such interventions...

But when Death comes close (if it doesn't come all of a sudden, of course), I think I would not want to miss the chance to see what it is like - compared to the alternative of "No more Me", this sounds like a better option.

People tend to forget quickly. Remember authors such as Ray Bradbury? They wrote about rockets and travelling through space. A young boy that once read those novels with fascination would later become a scientist. The scientists developed the rockets and space exploration devices that brought humans outside the Earth. It is not rare that science fiction sets the course of future scientific developments.

And now we have lots of bio-mechanics in graphic arts and movies. Not all the boys and girls who admire those will necessarily also become painters, script writers or directors. Some of them will become scientists as well. Some of them would get a regular job as a teacher or a regular employee but others will have the chance to experiment and discover new fields. Their ideas can't much deviate from what inspired them....

Long story short - Once, Darth Vader used to be simply science-fiction. It won't be long until he'll be just reduced to science wink
"
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#482804 - 11/16/12 04:34 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: john hunter]
Slowdown Offline


Registered: 11/14/12
Posts: 17
Loc: Bologna, Italy

My will is to live forever, and will drives me through life situations. This is the pratical part: I do love Unknown's medical team, as long as they can make me live longer.
Then comes a sort of theoretical part: all men must die. This is theoretical being a knowledge men can use to have a realistic sense of perspective on things.
Sure, I feel death has a role in having the right attitude towards life: it's what makes the game both exciting and easy.
That being said, I think of a biological immortality in the same way probably many people think about the spiritual one: with eternity to be lived, in the long run it would be natural to "cut off" the sensual process and work directly on mental stimulation.
So, while many would think of having sex with god, I would be visiting Yuggoth, but it would be the same kind of experience by nature.
All future bioethical matters could then become aesthetical matters. The choiche is up to you.

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#482829 - 11/17/12 11:14 AM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: Quaark]
Flavius Offline
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Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 2777
Loc: BridgePort
"Immaculate deception."
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#482834 - 11/17/12 05:56 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: Flavius]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Holy shit, Flavius posted again.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#483058 - 11/21/12 03:23 PM Re: immortality and ethics, are you ready? [Re: john hunter]
elaine2554 Offline


Registered: 11/21/12
Posts: 7
Loc: Europe
First, I imagine the inventor would become extremely rich (and rightly so)

Powerful dynastic families will gain even more wealth and power

On a more negative note, people who donīt have the means to be making these (obviously) huge purchases will spend eternity paying them off.
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