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#484068 - 12/17/12 04:57 PM Satanism and NLP
Numblok Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 25
Loc: United States
Satanism and NLP

I have been doing some extended reading and looking through forms of applied psychology for personal, and Lesser Magic, reasons. I was curious of anyone's opinion on Neurolingusitc Programming, and Radical Constructivism. Of course the former is not my bag, I guess I don't see very much of it falling into Solipsism. However, Neurolinguistic Programming can be a quite useful way to apply the Balance Factor.

Of course these are views held by the Temple of Set, which I did some reading about. They have some useful books on their reading list, some however seem to delve into the whole Supernatural stint about Set and the "real" Prince of Darkness.
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#484083 - 12/18/12 01:02 AM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: Numblok]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
I was just talking about NLP with a friend earlier. I think it's a useful tool. Still working through a stack of books on the subject, and can't say that I've worked any remarkable transformations in myself or others with it yet, but...

Since I started studying NLP, I pay much more attention when I speak to people, and I notice things in my speech and their's that once sailed over my head.
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#484087 - 12/18/12 03:00 AM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: Numblok]
Janina Offline
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1479
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Originally Posted By: ChrisA

Of course these are views held by the Temple of Set, which I did some reading about. They have some useful books on their reading list, some however seem to delve into the whole Supernatural stint about Set and the "real" Prince of Darkness.


I would recommend you to read this article:

PRETENDERS TO THE THRONE:

It has been written by Peter H. Gilmore, our present High Priest and Magus of the Church of Satan.

Originally Posted By: Magus Peter H. Gilmore

One group formed by ex-members of the Church of Satan which has continued to exist, albeit as a small and fairly clandestine vanity organization riding on the funds provided by its founder, is the Temple of Set. This bunch is significant only in that they have continued to try to ride upon the coattails of the Church of Satan, and indeed have even publicly claimed to be the successor to and custodian of the Church of Satan. You might have come across some advertisements or writing influenced by these Setians. Don’t be fooled (unlike some “hackademics” who falsely claim an understanding of contemporary Satanism); they are not in any way associated with the Church of Satan and their tales of schism are convenient diversions. Let us examine from whence this group appeared and clear away their false claims.


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#484113 - 12/18/12 01:26 PM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: Numblok]
Discipline Offline
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http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html

Long but worth reading just to get a different take on Neuro-linguistic programming.
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#484121 - 12/18/12 03:59 PM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: Numblok]
Chaos_Sedated Offline
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I find some of the methods of NLP to be useful tools in Lesser/Greater Magic, but I don't buy into any of the egalitarian dogmas espoused by its leading proponents.

A good article, Discipline, even though I'm wary of the "skeptical community". I've often found "skeptics" to be just as antagonistic to Satanism and specifically the Church of Satan as creationists.

http://skepdic.com/satan.html

Look at that, entry for Anton LaVey leads to some shit disturber, and links to that old "Analysis Of The Church of Satan" article by a TOS affiliate.


Edited by Chaos_Sedated (12/18/12 04:09 PM)
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#484125 - 12/18/12 06:28 PM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: Chaos_Sedated]
Discipline Offline
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>>A good article, Discipline, even though I'm wary of the "skeptical community". I've often found "skeptics" to be just as antagonistic to Satanism and specifically the Church of Satan as creationists.

Of course.

That doesn't mean their information on other topics is inaccurate.

I think Satanists should be skeptical of everything, even fringe ideas that might appeal to Satanists.
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#484126 - 12/18/12 06:30 PM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: Numblok]
Discipline Offline
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Since I take being the adversary to heart (even an adversary to my own beliefs and opinions), I tend to examine things to death.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/neurolinguistic-programming-and-other-nonsense/

Interesting, at least it will provide a counterpoint.
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#484130 - 12/18/12 09:15 PM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: Numblok]
Bill_M Offline
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Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: ChrisA
I have been doing some extended reading and looking through forms of applied psychology for personal, and Lesser Magic, reasons. I was curious of anyone's opinion on Neurolingusitc Programming

I actually first heard of NLP through, of all places, an Anthony Robins course. I can certainly see how this could be incorporated into LM or even GM. I'm not about to divulge the fine details, though. wink
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#484140 - 12/19/12 12:22 AM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: Numblok]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
In terms of lesser magic, I think Dale Carnegie's "How to win friends and influence people" is by far some of the best material you can read and apply.
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#484142 - 12/19/12 04:49 AM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: Discipline]
Janina Offline
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Originally Posted By: Discipline

I think Satanists should be skeptical of everything, even fringe ideas that might appeal to Satanists.



Agreed with Warlock here. Though we as Satanists can use what ever methods or techniques we feel successful to our personal purposes, I think that certain skepticism is and should always be the base of Satanism. The difference between Satanism and many other religions is that we base our understanding to science, logic and personal understanding, not just rules and regulations. So asking questions like why? and what for? is always more Satanic in my eyes than accepting truths as they are told..
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#484154 - 12/19/12 01:54 PM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: Discipline]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Agreed. I'd add that--at least speaking of my own experience--some of Dale's suggestions don't habituate easily. I still have some well-ingrained though not very self-serving habits. When Dale's material is applied correctly, though, it works. I'm still learning it.

As I am still learning about NLP. From what I have so far gathered of it, NLP is really everywhere. Just came across this example the other day:

Is that door still open?

How many people absent-mindedly understand that question as an implied command/suggestion to close the door? I'm thinking many.

Of course, I'm sure there are a some here that would deliberately interpret it as a direct question and reply with Yes, it is, all the while still understanding the implied command.

It's a rather benign example, but I think it illustrates the use of learning about NLP. If one understands these mechanisms that most others don't notice, he can leverage them to his advantage.
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#484158 - 12/19/12 07:07 PM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: TheAbysmal]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
That explanation seems to be just standard psychology.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#484164 - 12/19/12 07:24 PM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: Discipline]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Well, I'm no psychology major, for sure. I suppose NLP could be a kind of standard psychology just like How to Win Friends and Influence People is.

I would have thought that making people feel good about themselves to get from them was simple stuff, but not obvious, and I learned making it habit isn't simple, either. And, Dale's book sales would indicated the same of millions.

I think NLP could offer much the same, only instead of examining what makes people feel good about themselves, it examines how their speech reveals what makes them tick. Leveraging that is another story entirely.

* * *

It occurs to me that my example was just a poor example to highlight NLP with...

I'll keep this thread in mind and if I come across or remember one that really wows me, I'll chime in with it here.


Edited by TheAbysmal (12/19/12 07:34 PM)
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#484168 - 12/19/12 11:03 PM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: TheAbysmal]
StabAvery Offline

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Keep in mind that some people set their speech patterns for you to read, also. Not everyone is a blank page when it comes to behavioral psychology, even if they have developed their manipulation techniques for less than admirable reasons. Some leaches just act certain ways to get things and don't even realize the tactics they are employing.

I think most of us have been approached by that certain guy/gal who thinks they got it down and when they start to talk they lay it on so thick you can tell by their eyes and their general demeanor that they think they are getting away with something.

I have never read "how to win friends and influence people", but remember that learning these tactics benefits our purpose but some people have learned these tactics and use them as a survival method. Careful who you try to befriend or influence.

I have a large addition to this but I'm afraid I will append this version since it's "up here". wink

And the last NLP person I heard of did This


Edited by StabAvery (12/19/12 11:31 PM)
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#484190 - 12/20/12 11:41 AM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: Chaos_Sedated]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1813
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Chaos_Sedated

A good article, Discipline, even though I'm wary of the "skeptical community". I've often found "skeptics" to be just as antagonistic to Satanism and specifically the Church of Satan as creationists.

http://skepdic.com/satan.html

Look at that, entry for Anton LaVey leads to some shit disturber, and links to that old "Analysis Of The Church of Satan" article by a TOS affiliate.


Has anybody approached the owner of skepdic about this? I've listened to him on the Skepticality podcast and he sounds like the kind of person who would change his view if it was pointed out to him that the source was biased.

The Skepticality podcast also actually got things right about Satanism and clearly stated that it is not devil-worship in one of their episodes where the topic came up.
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#484197 - 12/20/12 01:10 PM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: verszou]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>The Skepticality podcast also actually got things right about Satanism and clearly stated that it is not devil-worship in one of their episodes where the topic came up.

I remember that episode. I think it was about Humanism and Satanism came up.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#484279 - 12/22/12 08:53 AM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: verszou]
Numblok Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 25
Loc: United States
Quote:
I find some of the methods of NLP to be useful tools in Lesser/Greater Magic, but I don't buy into any of the egalitarian dogmas espoused by its leading proponents.


Yes the egalitarianism of NLP books, especially NLP for Dummies (which is still a good starting point)is rampant, for many of them it's quite easy to disregard it and replace with a useful realistic and Satanic perspective. crossbones

I have found that treating others based on how they have treated you does not render NLP useless.

Quote:
In terms of lesser magic, I think Dale Carnegie's "How to win friends and influence people" is by far some of the best material you can read and apply.


I do have this and have read it many times, I have crossed out some areas and highlighted others. It's quite battle hardened little paperback. I was not impressed with the Digital Age version but it had some helpful pointers.

Quote:
I would recommend you to read this article:

PRETENDERS TO THE THRONE



Janina, I have read Pretenders to The Throne it was great, it actually kept me from buying into some of the Temple of Set's pseudo-philosophy. It was the straw that broke the camel's back, the rest was that their views are too damn confusing. I had a hard time reading through the article on Radical Constructivism, it was just...wow.

The Skeptical Perspecive on this is helpful as well, I am always questioning and I have found Bandler's book to not be very helpful. However the NLP for Dummies has a workbook for the learners who need to work thought the concepts, and Quantum NLP by Christiane Turner is not to bad either. Nonetheless, I never let these concepts (NLP or "New Age Support Groups") become an obstacle to the notion that I am a Satanist and if I want to achieve something I can do it and I will be successful if I work hard and do it right. Satanists are the highest embodiment of Evolutionary Life and NLP can't overshadow this, it's merely a tool.


Edited by ChrisA (12/22/12 09:00 AM)
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#484280 - 12/22/12 09:15 AM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: Bill_M]
Quaark Offline

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Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8865
A number of years ago I had the chance to get to know a psychiatrist who was one of the main direct disciples of the founders of NLP.

He was a world class master of subtle manipulation of even those who thought they were highly "immune" to same. One of his "off the shrink clock" gigs was to quietly sit in corporate negotiations and observe the "enemy".

He'd then quietly pass notes to his corporate employers with suggestions how to throw the other team off balance, confuse them, anger them, make them anxious, mislead them, basically get them to make serious blunders that his side could take immediate and devastating advantage of.

In private conversations with him he lambasted the pop culture infatuation with NLP and said that doing real NLP was a rare gift, like being born a world class athlete or musician, and that less than one percent of those who tried would have any success at it.

One either (according to him) had an intuitive feel for how to do it (in which case the skills would just arise and evolve naturally and "learning" NLP was silly and irrelevant), or one didn't have a natural talent and instinct about it (in which case it was a self-deluded waste of time "learning" NLP).

He also said that the only group that seemed to have a natural immunity to all his nefarious tricks were Native American elders, because they had developed iron wills, knew what they really wanted, and could not be dissuaded, confused, or rattled.

"Most all White people just have weak flabby minds, older Indians minds are made out of rock and iron."

Not everything he did was mischievous or for profit. He also was quite effective curing war veterans and rape and incest victims of serious PTSD (cases that had been labeled hopeless), and frequently did it in one session.

Since knowing him I've decided that the core skills do exist, but only a tiny elite of the naturally talented can actually do it; the mass practice of it is for the most part bullshit, like the mass practice of most things is bullshit.
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#484281 - 12/22/12 09:16 AM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: Numblok]
Janina Offline
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1479
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: ChrisA
I never let these concepts (NLP or "New Age Support Groups") become an obstacle to the notion that I am a Satanist and if I want to achieve something I can do it and I will be successful if I work hard and do it right. Satanists are the highest embodiment of Evolutionary Life and NLP can't overshadow this, it's merely a tool.


Nicely put sir. I like the way you wrote it here!
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#484304 - 12/22/12 03:08 PM Re: Satanism and NLP [Re: Numblok]
Numblok Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 25
Loc: United States
Quote:
Since knowing him I've decided that the core skills do exist, but only a tiny elite of the naturally talented can actually do it; the mass practice of it is for the most part bullshit, like the mass practice of most things is bullshit.


Just that way an egalitarian society tries to make everyone feel like a big shot, even if they can't come up with the goods.

I think that's why I never like Bandler's book on NLP, it seemed to be the first on everyone's list. Some mass marketed book that had this pipe dream title on it to make promises for people who couldn't achieve their goals with their own determination.


Edited by ChrisA (12/22/12 03:09 PM)
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