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#492754 - 10/28/13 05:50 AM 9sense - Magister Nemo
Rev. Campbell Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 779
Loc: Utah, USA
http://youtu.be/PCcYWmeSkCI

In this very special episode of 9sense, your host Warlock Campbell sits down with Magsiter Nemo to discuss the fringe topics around Greater Magic.

Open your mind, conduct your own research and make your will be done!

Hail Satan!
_________________________
~ Reverend Campbell
Speak of the Devil

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#492764 - 10/28/13 12:57 PM Re: 9sense - Magister Nemo [Re: Rev. Campbell]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
THIS was a real treat! Thanks to the both of you for this podcast!
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#492768 - 10/28/13 03:02 PM Re: 9sense - Magister Nemo [Re: Unknown]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 13135
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
It was a real pleasure to be able to do this interview and I enjoyed it very much.

I am very grateful to Warlock Campbell to be given this opportunity to discuss these topics regarding our deepest traditions just in time for Halloween!

He is an excellent interviewer and a pleasure to work with.
_________________________
Magister Nemo's Satanic Offerings:
DISCOVERING THE SATANIC GOD - The heart of Satanism.
THE SEVENTH TOWER OF SATAN - Ritual in virtual reality.
BENEATH THE SEVENTH TOWER OF SATAN - Deeper VR ritual.
THE FIRE FROM WITHIN - My book.

My first audio interview on GREATER MAGIC
My second audio interview by Rev Campbell



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#492773 - 10/28/13 03:58 PM Re: 9sense - Magister Nemo [Re: Unknown]
Rev. Campbell Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 779
Loc: Utah, USA
You are very welcome!
_________________________
~ Reverend Campbell
Speak of the Devil

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#492774 - 10/28/13 04:00 PM Re: 9sense - Magister Nemo [Re: Nemo]
Rev. Campbell Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 779
Loc: Utah, USA
Magister Nemo,

Thank you for your kind words. It was an honor to speak with you, and I hope we can talk again in the future.

Hail Satan!
_________________________
~ Reverend Campbell
Speak of the Devil

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#492775 - 10/28/13 04:43 PM Re: 9sense - Magister Nemo [Re: Nemo]
Dark Passenger Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/03/13
Posts: 311
I've wondered what your conversation would be like. That was excellent.

I wonder if perhaps a place to start changing thinking is to tighten definitions of "pseudoscience" and "science," adding "fringe science" to describe fields who's claims are borderline--features too solid to dismiss, yet too apparitional to snapshot.

Second, Warlock Campbell mentioned disbelief in magic among Satanists. I wonder if Satanists come to the same point I have, thinking Greater Magic is contrivance, and doesn't automatically relate to doctrine. Goals of Greater Magic are solid--graceful balance that neither embraces foolishness, nor dismisses out of compulsion, in order to win a contest. I'm not convinced that Satanic Ritual--as offered by LaVey, are CONSTITUTIONALLY (that word is important) the best way of bringing that state about. I'd be interested in whether you and Warlock Campbell--or any other experienced Satanists, for that matter, think that Satanists just don't believe in magic--even as loosely as Satanism defines it, or whether they do, but with maturity it takes on more mundane forms. Tools improve as standards evolve. Indeed, the Conjurations often skew emotions rather than balancing them. What are your thoughts on this?


I also wonder if perhaps some Satanists just start blurring Lesser and Greater Magic, and just confuse it with manipulation and mind games--which annoy everyone. Most of us learn the lesson in high-school that being able to trick people isn't so cute once everyone's wise to it and doesn't trust you anymore. A talking monkey knows enough to avoid that--which says something about xians and proves Darwin right altogether in my book.

There are many improvements one can make with Lesser Magic that make one desirable--without overt manipulation, but telegraphing intent cheapens play. Perhaps Satanists are just denying it to keep it working.

Do you think Satanists are denying it to keep credibility? As I look at the question I just asked, I feel like kind of an asshole. I'm not saying practicing magic should reduce credibility--but I can see why one would not admit to it, to sidestep a misinterpretation. Does that make sense?

Maybe it's the same phenomenon as denying you're a Satanist when asked by some xian fucktard you know will immediately start barking your disgrace from the rooftops because they heard the word "Satan." Obviously, Satanists talk more openly to eachother, but perhaps there's still that fear of being stigmatized as someone who plays a lot of games with people.

What do you think?
_________________________
LIBERTVS A VOLGI TYRANNIDE

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#492777 - 10/28/13 06:24 PM Re: 9sense - Magister Nemo [Re: Dark Passenger]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 13135
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Glad you enjoyed it. Thank you.

I cringe when I hear or read the word "pseudoscience".

"Pseudoscience" has usually come to mean "Some perspective I already know is wrong because I am omniscient and have credentials as a scientist." grin

Since science is a method and not a position, this reminds me of the same issue with "pseudo-Satanism" and "Satanism".

Just as there really is only "Satanism", there really is only "science". Those who try to hijack the name in both cases are only playing word games usually for propaganda purposes.

One of the reasons I wanted to discuss Greater Magic is because the "greater" should receive more attention than the "lesser" whereas I have noticed all too many Satanists dismissing the "greater" as only a function of the "lesser".

Stratification is found everywhere, even in distinguishing magic as "greater" and "lesser".

Hence the names themselves of "Greater Magic" and "Lesser Magic".

As I got to explain in some detail in the interview, those who wish to pretend that the overall evidence for psi phenomena does not meet the highest scientific standards are prejudiced, not biased.

This perspective can be easily reversed by direct study of the evidence.

Once you know that an electric drill can be more effective as a tool than a manual drill then you can learn more about electric drills and perhaps decide to use one as needed instead.

The same applies to Greater Magic.

If the Satanist thinks that it is nothing more than an elaborate form of ceremony and not actually effective in any real way, then why would they consider using it for an effective (external) purpose?

And insofar as letting others know that you are using Greater Magic, perhaps you caught my mention of why part of GM is being extremely careful to not let the wrong people even realize that you are using it.

But this is only rehashing briefly what I was so very pleased to have plenty of time to discuss in greater depth in the interview.

Once again I am glad you enjoyed it. I did too.
_________________________
Magister Nemo's Satanic Offerings:
DISCOVERING THE SATANIC GOD - The heart of Satanism.
THE SEVENTH TOWER OF SATAN - Ritual in virtual reality.
BENEATH THE SEVENTH TOWER OF SATAN - Deeper VR ritual.
THE FIRE FROM WITHIN - My book.

My first audio interview on GREATER MAGIC
My second audio interview by Rev Campbell



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#492781 - 10/28/13 07:23 PM Re: 9sense - Magister Nemo [Re: Rev. Campbell]
ror Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/13/02
Posts: 1619
Loc: DracUR, Kalifornien: Yay Area
Thank you both for a most excellent presentation!
I'll be listening to this many times!
Since Sheldrake/Radin were mentioned I'd like to recommend a couple more digestible clips before obtaining their books.
I've posted these years ago here but can't find them now on LttD.
Both videos were posted 5 years ago on Youtube


http://www.satannet.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=378602&an=

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#492782 - 10/28/13 07:31 PM Re: 9sense - Magister Nemo [Re: Rev. Campbell]
WolfMoon Offline


Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 735
Excellent interview!

Thanks for sharing.

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#492802 - 10/29/13 09:52 AM Re: 9sense - Magister Nemo [Re: Rev. Campbell]
CBurgert Offline



Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 23
Loc: Pa
I truly enjoyed listening to this interview, I always seem to learn a little something from 9Sense.

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#492806 - 10/29/13 01:25 PM Re: 9sense - Magister Nemo [Re: Rev. Campbell]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 13135
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
My dear Adam,

I was asked by several people today if your interview with me could be made available on an mp3.

Rather than send multiple people to ask you this I thought I might ask you myself here.

I saw that it was available on iTunes but I am really very unfamiliar with that service and what format they use.

Thank you again for a delightful experience!

HS!

Nemo
_________________________
Magister Nemo's Satanic Offerings:
DISCOVERING THE SATANIC GOD - The heart of Satanism.
THE SEVENTH TOWER OF SATAN - Ritual in virtual reality.
BENEATH THE SEVENTH TOWER OF SATAN - Deeper VR ritual.
THE FIRE FROM WITHIN - My book.

My first audio interview on GREATER MAGIC
My second audio interview by Rev Campbell



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#492807 - 10/29/13 01:47 PM Re: 9sense - Magister Nemo [Re: Nemo]
Rev. Campbell Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 779
Loc: Utah, USA
Magister Nemo,

Our interview is available as an mp3 on my website http://9sensepodcast.com. It is the most recent episode, listed on the right side of the home page. Here is a direct link:
http://9sensepodcast.com/mp3/xlviii/october/27octoberxlviiias.mp3

Hail Satan!
_________________________
~ Reverend Campbell
Speak of the Devil

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#492808 - 10/29/13 01:59 PM Re: 9sense - Magister Nemo [Re: Rev. Campbell]
Favenris Offline



Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 162
Loc: Portland, Oregon
What a refreshing discussion on the subject of Greater Magic! I find it unfortunate that such a large and important element of Satanism is highly neglected, as most of the Doktor's works are focused on said area!

It was enjoyable to hear a logical approach to the Powers of Darkness, as well as the criticism of certain elements of modern science that "claim to know everything." I find that one of the magnificent beauties of life is the fact that we don't know everything.

I also agreed that such work must be performed and verified by the individual, and that results are what matters. Walking into the Chamber halfheartedly won't produce anything, so it's truly up to the person to test everything and believe nothing.

This discussion helped me as I recently produced real results with Greater Magic and unfortunately fell into the trap known as "Solipsism." I'm glad I was able to hear this topic discussed so close to Halloween and it meant a lot to me personally.

Looking forward to more from 9Sense!
_________________________
"Training is nothing! The will is everything! The will to act." - Ra's al Ghul

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#492810 - 10/29/13 04:59 PM Re: 9sense - Magister Nemo [Re: Dark Passenger]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Hello, I noticed in your post you asked questions for those who have experience with Greater Magic. Magister Nemo is more than qualified to speak on the subject, but I did want to see if I can answer a few questions you had as well from my own experience. I hope you will find my reply to you beneficial.

Quote:

I wonder if perhaps a place to start changing thinking is to tighten definitions of "pseudoscience" and "science," adding "fringe science" to describe fields who's claims are borderline--features too solid to dismiss, yet too apparitional to snapshot.


The scientific method is really quite simple.

1. You ask questions
2. Do background research.
3. Test your hypothesis by doing an experiment.
4. Analyze your data and draw a conclusion.
5. Communicate your results.

As Magister Nemo pointed out science is a method and not a position. When someone uses science as a position you are not dealing with science but rather the mind of the individual. Once the burden of proof has been met then it is up to the individual to either accept it or not. I do not mean mere belief neither. Because the Satanist is his own God he must have his own standards for truth. Furthermore truth is a subjective term and so not all will have the same standards.

Quote:
Satanism rejects faith as a tool of cognition, and so Satanists who practice ritual must gather evidence that satisfies their standards of truth if they suspect that their rituals are having results outside of the chamber.
The Satanic Scriptures.

In the end a Satanist may experience results outside of their ritual chamber but even they can fall to the entrapment of cognitive dissonance. In my experience, the more often you get results along with the willingness to accept the results the easier it is to get over this mental hurdle. As with any scientific experiment some fall short of results and thus fall short on their conclusion. Just as there are some people greater at playing a musical instrument than others, so it is with performing Greater Magic.

Because magic is a skill you will find some incapable of this skill. Greater Magic requires an inner discipline and effort and over time becomes easier for those who have the inner desire for such. Anton LaVey talks about this in his chapter How to Be a Sorcerer in Satan Speaks.
Quote:
One does not "evolve" or "become" a magician.
Anton LaVey has always said that there is a personality type that is within the Magician. While all Satanists are not magicians some are. Anton LaVey developed Greater Magic for those who have this inborn natural desire to explore those very desires. There is a reason why The Magic Circle existed as part of the Church's history.
Quote:
There was the magic—and there was a workable philosophy to go along with it.


As Magus Gilmore said, the burden of proof is up to the individual for Satanic Ritual. His point is further emphasized in his essay Satanism: The Feared Religion.
Quote:
Satanists do have experience of the super-normal in their practice of ritual or Greater Magic. This is a technique for influencing the outcome of human events to desired ends via reaching an extreme emotional state in the context of a ritual, sending forth a vision of what you want to occur (the Is To Be), which, if your levels of adrenaline are high enough, will permeate the unconscious minds of those you wish to influence, causing them to behave as you Will when the time is right. This does not mean that anything is possible, for it takes a great deal of energy to make a strong sending, and it is often difficult to influence events from the inertia of their present directions. Awareness of your abilities and what is possible to achieve is the hallmark of a successful Satanic magician.


Some are 20 watt light bulbs while others are 50 watt light bulbs. It all depends on the potential of the individual and the use of that potential to actually get results. This potential can be effected by how we view the world. If you enter Satanic Ritual with doubt then you have set a pre-judgement and there is no point in attempting a Satanic Ritual because your mind was already made up. You then have conflicting emotions which can and will seriously hinder your ritual.

Quote:
I also wonder if perhaps some Satanists just start blurring Lesser and Greater Magic, and just confuse it with manipulation and mind games--which annoy everyone


While Lesser Magic is psychological warfare to directly influence behavior Greater Magic is psychological warfare in a more abstract sense. The definition of Greater Magic as used in The Satanic Bible is: The change in situations or events in accordance with one's will, which would, using normally accepted methods, be unchangeable. The Balance Factor as well as desire are 2 ingredients that can be increased through a built rapport with the person or situation you desire to change. For example if you have no job or previous experience and you perform a Satanic Ritual and apply for a job at a fortune 500 company chances of getting the job are null. So having some ground to stand on can get you to where you need to go. So I think that Lesser Magic can cross over into Greater Magic and sometimes the lines can be blurred. That is why the Balance Factor is so essential.

So for those who are curious about Satanic Ritual I would challenge them to drop their pre-judgements and be open to new experiences. I do not mean to accept magic based upon faith but rather drop the faith that it is not real.

I did this and in my experience I have gotten results.
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#492821 - 10/30/13 04:56 AM Re: 9sense - Magister Nemo [Re: Nemo]
Dark Passenger Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/03/13
Posts: 311
Quote:
science is a method and not a position


...another rockstar reductionism.

I hope to hear much more from you from whatever other mediums the powers that be make available.

I've always enjoyed your posts, and getting to hear discussion was even better. When you speak, I'm constantly reminded of the efficiency of Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins, but even better, because you're exploratory rather than defensive. It's really easy for Satanists to get so weighed down by what's not--or shouldn't be possible, that we lose sight of discovery and just settle for relief. Hitchens and Dawkins relieve, but you buoy discovery. When I take notes, I can't decide what to prioritize, because everything is useful and filled with practical treats. I always feel smarter afterwards, and hopeful for development I'd resigned on previous. I hope your further media exposure reflects that.

You constantly invoke in Satanists the ability to surprise ourselves and wonder what else we can do that we've forgotten about.

This is a rare trait indeed. Don't ever stop.
_________________________
LIBERTVS A VOLGI TYRANNIDE

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#492939 - 11/02/13 01:28 PM Edited [Re: Unknown]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
I edited my response on here to make the flow a little bit better and added as well as subtracted from it. I tried deleting the old post but couldn't.
------------------

Hello, I noticed in your post you asked questions for those who have experience with Greater Magic. Magister Nemo is more than qualified to speak on the subject, but I did want to see if I can answer a few questions you had as well from my own experience. I hope you will find my reply to you beneficial.

QUESTION:
Quote:
I wonder if perhaps a place to start changing thinking is to tighten definitions of "pseudoscience" and "science," adding "fringe science" to describe fields who's claims are borderline--features too solid to dismiss, yet too apparitional to snapshot.




ANSWER: The scientific method is really quite simple. 1. You ask questions 2. Do background research. 3. Test your hypothesis by doing an experiment. 4. Analyze your data and draw a conclusion. 5. Communicate your results.

As Magister Nemo pointed out in his interview, science is a method and not a position. When someone uses science as a position then you are not dealing with science but rather the mind of the individual. Once the burden of proof has been met then it is up to the individual to either accept it or not. I do not mean mere belief neither. Because the Satanist is his own God he must have his own standards for truth. Furthermore truth is a subjective term and so not all will have the same standards.

Satanism rejects faith as a tool of cognition, and so Satanists who practice ritual must gather evidence that satisfies their standards of truth if they suspect that their rituals are having results outside of the chamber. The Satanic Scriptures



In the end a Satanist may experience results outside of their ritual chamber but even they can fall to the entrapment of cognitive dissonance. In my experience, the more often you get results along with the willingness to accept the results the easier it is to get over this mental hurdle. For those who can't or refuse to acknowledge their results self-deceit comes to mind for them. As with any scientific experiment some fall short of their results and thus fall short of their conclusion. The important thing is to not base your conclusion on incomplete results. As Lewis Carroll once said, begin and the beginning and go on till you come to the end; then stop.

Because magic is a skill you will find some incapable of this skill. For those who are incapable to use this skill then Satanic Ritual can serve as psychodrama. Rituals then become a cathartic experience and will reflect in our attitudes outside of the Ritual chamber. To use Greater Magic to "change events in accordance with your will" requires an inner discipline and effort that over time becomes easier for those who have the inner desire for such. Anton LaVey talks about this in his chapter How to Be a Sorcerer in Satan Speaks. One does not "evolve" or "become" a magician. Either you are a magician or you are not. Because Using Satanic Ritual for Greater Magic is not for everyone Anton LaVey has added a wide range of uses for it.

Anton LaVey has also always said that there is a personality type that is within the Magician. While all Satanists are not magicians some are. Anton LaVey developed Greater Magic for those who have this inborn natural desire to explore those very desires. There is a reason why The Magic Circle existed as part of the Church's history. There was magic-and a workable philosophy to go along with it. To read more about the Magic Circle please go here; The Order of the Trapezoid.

Because Stanic Ritual is a personal experience the burden of proof for Satanic Ritual as Greater Magic is upon the individual to test and verify it. High Priest Gilmore makes this abundantly clear in his essay, Satanism: The Feared Religion.

Satanists do have experience of the super-normal in their practice of ritual or Greater Magic. This is a technique for influencing the outcome of human events to desired ends via reaching an extreme emotional state in the context of a ritual, sending forth a vision of what you want to occur (the Is To Be), which, if your levels of adrenaline are high enough, will permeate the unconscious minds of those you wish to influence, causing them to behave as you Will when the time is right. This does not mean that anything is possible, for it takes a great deal of energy to make a strong sending, and it is often difficult to influence events from the inertia of their present directions. Awareness of your abilities and what is possible to achieve is the hallmark of a successful Satanic magician.


It is up to the Satanist to know what those abilities are and to utilize them during Satanic Ritual. Some Satanists may only operate at a 20 watt level while others may operate at a 50 watt level depending on how strong their desire is along with their understanding of the essential ingredients for Satanic Ritual. This potential can be effected within Satanic Ritual by how one views the world. If you enter the Intellectual Decompression Chamber with doubt then you have set a pre-judgement and there is no point in attempting a Satanic Ritual anyway because your mind was already made up. You will then have conflicting emotions and will seriously hinder your results. Satanic Ritual should serve as a lens for undivided intent. Anton LaVey speaks about this in no small detail in The Satanic Bible as does Magus Gilmore in The Satanic Scriptures.


If your goal is to communicate your intent into the mind of another then that intent must be clear. If your mind is not clear then the communication of that intent will be distorted.

There is a popularized version of telepathic communication in Hollywood movies. This is NOT the telepathic communication that Anton LaVey is speaking about. The goal is to communicate into the unconscious mind of the individual you wish to influence.

QUESTION:
Quote:
I also wonder if perhaps some Satanists just start blurring Lesser and Greater Magic, and just confuse it with manipulation and mind games--which annoy everyone.


While Lesser Magic is psychological warfare to directly influence behavior Greater Magic is psychological warfare in a more abstract sense. The definition of Magic as used in The Satanic Bible is: The change in situations or events in accordance with one's will, which would, using normally accepted methods, be unchangeable.

The goal for Greater Magic then is to utilize another tool for more control and personal empowerment over the world. The same can be said for Lesser Magic.

The Balance Factor as well as Desire are 2 ingredients that can be increased through a built rapport with the person or situation you desire to change. For example if you have no job or previous experience and you perform a Satanic Ritual and apply for a job at a fortune 500 company chances of getting the job are null. Or if you do land a job interview through the use of Greater Magic but yet lack the understanding of Lesser Magic and interview horribly you may have just ruined your own results. So having some ground to stand on can get you to where you need to go. That is why the book of Belial speaks about standing on firm ground. So I think that Lesser Magic can cross over into Greater Magic or vice-versa and sometimes the lines can be blurred. That is also why the Balance Factor is so essential to understand.

So for those who are curious about Satanic Ritual I would challenge them to drop their pre-judgements and be open to new experiences. I do not mean to accept magic based upon faith but rather drop the faith that it is not real.

I did this and in my experience I have gotten results.

Here is a link that may be of interest for those who wish to explore Greater Magic.

Peer Reviewed Publications on Psi Research: Psi Research. This link was discovered via Magister Nemo's signature.


Edited by Unknown (11/02/13 01:49 PM)
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#492941 - 11/02/13 01:56 PM The Science Delusion [Re: Unknown]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Rupert Sheldrake speaks about "the science delusion".

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#492944 - 11/02/13 05:03 PM Re: Edited [Re: Unknown]
Dark Passenger Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/03/13
Posts: 311
Aside from the meaning and import of your post, I feel quickened when I see someone put so much interest into tooling the written word to explore, understand, and explain the world. This is not a trifling post. I can see you put your best into it. I also see you're a fan of Francis Bacon. These two points alone give you automatic cool points with me. Bacon was one of those rare individuals who lived in a perpetual state of trying to improve the dynamics of thinking well. Prooemium of the Great Instauration is doctrinal to me, having memorized it. For sheer expression and determination of improving quality of thought, it stands alone. Moreover, the Old English means that very few read or understand him--much less take enough pleasure in conversation about his writings that they make it to me. I'm always delighted to find someone to cook some Bacon with.

Speaking of which, I really liked the reference (elsewhere) of Bacon's Simulation and Dissimulation. For those willing to crowbar the meaning from old English writings, it's an excellent contribution.

I'll have more to say, but it's going to take a little time here to fully digest both your extensive post, and refresh myself on the Bacon reference.

As everyone knows, Bacon is delicious--but hard to digest. grin
_________________________
LIBERTVS A VOLGI TYRANNIDE

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#492945 - 11/02/13 07:10 PM Re: 9sense - Magister Nemo [Re: Nemo]
Dark Passenger Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/03/13
Posts: 311
Ever feel the need to make a statement in the form of a question just to get it through? I'm in an opposite mode. I'm looking for a greater perspective, but I only know how to write it out as theory. The question form isn't clicking for me. Does that make sense?

I'm finding there is a shifting and growing dynamic within this and related threads. It is as if, like a planchette, the focus shifts between the overlaps of various groups of fields. "Greater Magic," Knowledge Management, Scientific Method, faith, belief, suspended disbelief, various writings and bodies of work from numerous sources and authors.

It seems as though, when taken altogether, it could be argued that Greater Magic, as you pointed out with science, is also a method and not a position. Perhaps it is more productively viewed as a means of throwing off sleep, than as something that "works" or not.

My previous cantankerousness over the topic was how close it's description was starting to match one of "faith." A rose by any other name--so to speak. I see the potential for the same confusion as faith. It starts with belief and ends with results often opposite to what they're called. E.g., it's commonly described as intending to rid oneself of negative emotions, whilst actually reinforcing them dramatically. The Conjurations are powerful in the extreme--no argument there, but that's exactly my point. Who really walks away from a conjuration of destruction without wanting to kick someone's ass, or of compassion without tears, or of lust without lust? None of that balances a person out, I think.

There's a certain sense of blurring areas of magic, science, faith, belief, self-determinism, receptivity and reconciling it with rejection of known bullshit. In doing so, it's hard to keep that many angles going on at the same time, and be able to write in a way that offers the qualities I like to feature. Therefore, please understand why I'm not being concise.

If I get where you're coming from, Magister Nemo, and please tell me if I'm not, it looks like you mean that the overwhelming forces of Satanism function within the ether as a means of opening oneself to unconsidered possibilities--as it pulls one against the rigidity of interpretation demanded by the zeitgeist, in order to make society economically predictable. Hence, the more toward the zeitgeist we move, the more right-hand path the journey. Hence, xians at the worst point--but on the same level as those who see themselves free from the tyranny of the commonplace, but deceptively so.

Would this be your position?:

In practicing Greater Magic, one enhances receptivity to the unknown, without falling prey to gullibility.

Perhaps the gem of wisdom to be had here is that the ossification of curiosity resulting from disgust over pedestrian attempts to be freed from conventional restraints of the zeitgeist, is ALSO a part of the dynamic. In simple terms, it's like rebelling against xianity is not ACTUALLY rebellion, if your rebellion takes on EXACTLY the formula xians prescribe for it's followers.

The scientist who has lost his wonder to distinguish himself from the rubes at the carnival is as surely dead inside as the gullible. He may not be deceived, but his development is just as damned.

There is some great quality of thought going into this by a number of people. What are your thoughts?
_________________________
LIBERTVS A VOLGI TYRANNIDE

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#492946 - 11/02/13 07:26 PM Re: The Science Delusion [Re: Unknown]
Dark Passenger Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/03/13
Posts: 311
Rupert Sheldrake is going right next to Dawkins and Hitchens on my priority list.

This presentation here seems to me like the perspective a scientist would have that practices Greater Magic effectively.

Does that make sense?
_________________________
LIBERTVS A VOLGI TYRANNIDE

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#492947 - 11/02/13 07:33 PM Re: Edited [Re: Unknown]
Dark Passenger Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/03/13
Posts: 311
It seems like the further we advance the topic, the more challenging the dynamic of concise interplay between different degrees of applicability and granularity. We could empty a dictionary trying to describe all of this.

Perhaps it's a function of the topic being fundamental to how we interact with our environment--while taking the entire Universe as our domain. That's a broad thesis indeed.
_________________________
LIBERTVS A VOLGI TYRANNIDE

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#492949 - 11/02/13 07:59 PM Re: The Science Delusion [Re: Dark Passenger]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 13135
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
Rupert Sheldrake is going right next to Dawkins and Hitchens on my priority list.

This presentation here seems to me like the perspective a scientist would have that practices Greater Magic effectively.

Does that make sense?


Yes. But sadly it would seem according to Sheldrake, that while Dawkins is an otherwise highly intelligent scientist and extremely well qualified to discuss the science of genetics, this is not the case with regard to psi:

_________________________
Magister Nemo's Satanic Offerings:
DISCOVERING THE SATANIC GOD - The heart of Satanism.
THE SEVENTH TOWER OF SATAN - Ritual in virtual reality.
BENEATH THE SEVENTH TOWER OF SATAN - Deeper VR ritual.
THE FIRE FROM WITHIN - My book.

My first audio interview on GREATER MAGIC
My second audio interview by Rev Campbell



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#492951 - 11/02/13 08:26 PM Re: The Science Delusion [Re: Nemo]
Dark Passenger Offline
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Posts: 311
I'm going to forego the obvious path here, which would be Dawkins' potentially having on his side that most "psychic" phenomenon can't be predictably repeated and confirmed, which is a requisite of calling something "scientific."

I'm going to jump past that and address what seems to be Dawkins responding with the emotional programming that goes hand in hand with overexposure to xian trends. The discouragement of widespread campaigns to constantly kick reason square in the balls over and over and over again.

It gets really annoying--especially if you come from a background where your life has been deeply damaged by these games. When someone brings something around that resembles the same bullshit, I see why Dawkins' gets annoyed. Plus, Dawkins is English--and their culture is deeply about being actually atheist while extending every possible courtesy to religious, and the crown maintaining an institutional church that collects taxes. There's an angst that serious scientists get just from living in the culture day to day. So many want to be seen as above religion--but always an inch away from inviting it in for tea and grabbing ankles.

I'm thinking that whatever useful function Dawkins' genius might serve toward discovery is being held back by the programmed aversion to rube thinking that he's constantly exposed to.

Dawkins is a hero of mine--but as a defender rather than an explorer. He's a good guy to "mind the fence."


You can only collect so many fleas before you turn into a Tasmanian Devil. I'm guessing you hold Greater Magic to be the flea bath? grin

If so, I agree. If someone pukes on your shoes, do you clean up part of it? Rage may make for good defense, but it's neither exploratory nor creative.
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#492952 - 11/02/13 08:52 PM Re: The Science Delusion [Re: Nemo]
Dark Passenger Offline
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Registered: 09/03/13
Posts: 311
I'm finally going to respond to your psi focus--first ridding myself of the defensive approaches we've agreed are unproductive.

Most take the approach of proving a thing to be true before claiming it is. Say we take a different approach. When the Inuit go fishing, they don't look for fish, but birds. What if we look at psi as a given, and then considering how the evolution would likely have progressed, perhaps get a better idea where to look for later proof.

Suppose we just throw in a few ingredients and measure them all later?

A wave perspective viewing the evolution of how humans interact with their environment.

The phenomenon of "rogue" waves as a product of random averages of biased interpolations reinforcing harmonics along that wave.

The transition of extroversion to introversion of human anthropology. The potential prodigy lost to manual labor is saved by web access. Likewise, less sustained is the dolt of priveledge, from being born into the good-ol-boy network.

The "p300" "familiarity" brain-wave. Potential receptivity to the p300 wave is rarely if ever discussed. Why not?

Looseness of terms is a matter of degree. EEG helmets could easily be considered telekinetic. It just means incorporating a lot of circuitry into the paradigm we call "telekinetic." How revolutionary it "seems" is often just a function of the novelty of it's description.

Anyone familiar with Crowley's so-called "magickal theorems" would see connections and relationships all over the board between psi and technology. Reading eachother's minds from a distance describes a cell phone.

I would expect signal to be the best avenue of pursuit--over telekinesis, as logically whatever energy the brain can produce would require astronomically more to affect a physical object than a signal.

One might even find that the simple act of exploring psi may render unexpected benefits in thinking better. I once considered a course in radiology just to explore the overall sense of "occultism"--as the phenomenon truly functions in the real world.

One might even call radiologists the only "real" occultists. They spend their entire careers using arcane methods and instruments to see what no one else can.
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#492955 - 11/02/13 09:47 PM Re: The Science Delusion [Re: Dark Passenger]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 13135
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Zeno, you are welcome to think anything you wish.

My interview was intended to urge interested Satanists who have been conned into thinking that psi phenomena is "bunk" to doubt this assumption by looking at the actual scientific research.

You said you have listened to my interview on this topic.

Thank you.

Perhaps it might be worthwhile to consider reading the research as I suggested there.

If not, so it is.

And what is, is.
_________________________
Magister Nemo's Satanic Offerings:
DISCOVERING THE SATANIC GOD - The heart of Satanism.
THE SEVENTH TOWER OF SATAN - Ritual in virtual reality.
BENEATH THE SEVENTH TOWER OF SATAN - Deeper VR ritual.
THE FIRE FROM WITHIN - My book.

My first audio interview on GREATER MAGIC
My second audio interview by Rev Campbell



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#492959 - 11/02/13 10:30 PM Re: The Science Delusion [Re: Nemo]
Dark Passenger Offline
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Registered: 09/03/13
Posts: 311
I guess I'm trying to explore both topics, one through the other.

It seemed as though one of your original posts discussed a connection between greater magic and the type of thinking that discards potentially worthwhile exploration because it resembles bad reasoning.

That seems to be the real point here. It does make sense to view certain claims with suspicion, when the last few thousand times were made by a loner in a psych ward eating flies, or written in shit, or next to pictures of jackalopes with knives in their faces by some freakshow before going batshit with a gun then turning it on himself.

I can see why Dawkins demands something to distinguish the same claim before giving credit. There's nothing wrong with that. I also see how too much exposure can make one so defensive, he misses actual worth.

Most of the economy is a function of unsubstantiated bullshit. The deck is stacked in the wrong direction. Disregarding that is faith. Being jaded by it is impotence.

It's that third side that seems Satanic to me, being receptive without gullibility.

If that's not how you meant to relate greater magic to psi, what am I missing?
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#492960 - 11/02/13 11:02 PM Re: The Science Delusion [Re: Dark Passenger]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 13135
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I assume that your post is your way of saying you have not read the research I suggested in my interview. grin

Again, that is your choice.

My interview was aimed at those who have been dissuaded from doing so by polemics rather than science, to make them aware of the fact that they may have been conned by well-intentioned but nevertheless prejudiced and unscientific perspectives.

Dean Radins' excellent overview of these issues as well as the scientific evidence for psi in his book Supernormal will be here for many years to come.

You can always change your mind later and read it then.

What is, is.
_________________________
Magister Nemo's Satanic Offerings:
DISCOVERING THE SATANIC GOD - The heart of Satanism.
THE SEVENTH TOWER OF SATAN - Ritual in virtual reality.
BENEATH THE SEVENTH TOWER OF SATAN - Deeper VR ritual.
THE FIRE FROM WITHIN - My book.

My first audio interview on GREATER MAGIC
My second audio interview by Rev Campbell



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#492969 - 11/03/13 11:01 AM Re: The Science Delusion [Re: Nemo]
Dark Passenger Offline
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Registered: 09/03/13
Posts: 311
I have gone over the book. Radins claims, among other things, that love affects material reality is proven by a cancer patient's skin increasing it's conductivity by his/her spouse having watched a video of him/her. He also supports the idea that a person can go 69 years without eating or drinking because his mind allows him to convert ambient energy into nutrients--and presumably water as well.

"The implication is that the human body can transmute ambient energy into nutrients," Radin writes, "and through the practice of cultivating this ability one can live comfortably for as long as one wishes without food."
--Radins

No disrespect intended, Magister, but this is total bullshit. I'll go a step further, it's "believer" bullshit, and what I'd expect from xians.

It's not even worth talking about. It's the kind of thing I'd expect to hear from Karl Pilkington. There may be some entertainment value, but WTF? Why would you put the burden of proof on the one's doubting these kinds of claims?

Honestly, would you genuinely respect anyone who didn't call bullshit on using your mind for food and water? If you say yes, I'm going to have to call bullshit on that as well.

It's starting to look like you're reversing the roles of doubt and belief--trying to give one who doubts something unproven as one who just passively believes anything. They're hardly the same thing, and arguing one as the other over claims of turning ambient energy into food and water seems really insincere.

Bullshit Man


Edited by Zeno (11/03/13 11:14 AM)
Edit Reason: added url and quote
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#492970 - 11/03/13 11:42 AM Re: The Science Delusion [Re: Dark Passenger]
Rev. Campbell Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 779
Loc: Utah, USA
You have officially derailed this post. The interview has nothing to do with transmuting energy into nutrients. If you are looking for a debate, take it to private messages, or create a new, relevant post.
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#492971 - 11/03/13 11:57 AM Re: The Science Delusion [Re: Rev. Campbell]
Dark Passenger Offline
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These are claims made in the book Magister Nemo presented as evidence for psi, and quoted directly from it. They are not only relevant, but constitutionally relevant to his claims about doubt and belief central to his interview, as well as this entire thread. I did not bring any of this up. I'm responding to it.
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#492972 - 11/03/13 12:01 PM Re: The Science Delusion [Re: Dark Passenger]
Unknown Offline
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Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
It is a fallacy to assume one part of the book makes up the whole of the book.

Magister Nemo was specifically addressing psi research and NOT the issue you just brought up.
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#492973 - 11/03/13 12:33 PM Re: The Science Delusion [Re: Unknown]
Dark Passenger Offline
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Posts: 311
This is one of his claims on psi. He really believes a person can use psi to live for decades without food and water. Look it up.

I'm not trying to pick a fight at all--but who would consider that scientific in the least, or fault those who dismiss these ideas?

It's relevant--but I'm not asking anyone to "believe" me--or that doubting me is just another form of belief. I don't play those games.

If some offers me bullshit as evidence, I'm going to call it that. I'm a Satanist, not a believer.

So be it all. I don't care how this ends. It's not about me.
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#492974 - 11/03/13 12:41 PM Re: The Science Delusion [Re: Dark Passenger]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:
This is one of his claims on psi. He really believes a person can use psi to live for decades without food and water. Look it up.


You mean like this guy?

Or how about levitation?



I am reading through the book now and going through the second chapter. But this stuff has interested me all my life.
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#492975 - 11/03/13 12:59 PM Re: The Science Delusion [Re: Unknown]
Dark Passenger Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/03/13
Posts: 311
Yes. That's exactly the kind of thing I mean. The only thing more ridiculous than living without food is living without water.

It's bullshit.
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#492976 - 11/03/13 07:37 PM There is no debate here. Read the book carefully. [Re: Dark Passenger]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 13135
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Using polemics is the sign of weakness in any discussion.

Radin's book addressed exactly what you are most missing.

The entire point Radin was making was that in the few cases that actually tested these claims, they were (surprisingly!) not disproven.

Zeno, you are pretending to already know what is possible and impossible.

Radin's book is entirely about using the method of science to test claims you obviously do not believe are possible.

Your beliefs are not proofs.

They are merely what you believe.

You may believe you have read his book.

You really need to read it again ...perhaps far more slowly.

However if you are going to equate Satanism with omniscience, I would remind you that our religion is based on doubt, not certainty.

So is real science.

Dean Radin in his book Supernormal has done an excellent job of looking at what science has to say about psi phenomena.

It may contain his personal opinions at different points but it was the research results that makes this book useful.

That is why I feel it is useful for those who are still willing to admit that they do not already know everything.

There is not debate on this issue.

It is as I presented it in the interview.

Period.
_________________________
Magister Nemo's Satanic Offerings:
DISCOVERING THE SATANIC GOD - The heart of Satanism.
THE SEVENTH TOWER OF SATAN - Ritual in virtual reality.
BENEATH THE SEVENTH TOWER OF SATAN - Deeper VR ritual.
THE FIRE FROM WITHIN - My book.

My first audio interview on GREATER MAGIC
My second audio interview by Rev Campbell



Top
#492979 - 11/03/13 08:04 PM Re: There is no debate here. Read the book carefully. [Re: Nemo]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:

It may contain his personal opinions at different points but it was the research results that makes this book useful.


EXACTLY!
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#492981 - 11/03/13 09:42 PM Re: There is no debate here. Read the book carefully. [Re: Nemo]
Dark Passenger Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/03/13
Posts: 311
I think it's great that people are trying to push the envelope and explore. I'm not just giving everyone the finger. I hope everyone continues to enjoy themselves if I just drop the conversation.

A person who outright states they believe a person can use psychic powers to convert ambient energy into food loses all credibility with me. It's not just that one issue. It sheds doubt on everything he says--as if it were believable in the first place. It's irresponsible to behave as though it's credible until proven otherwise--to accept written descriptions of "evidence" as actual evidence, when it's not, all the while being critical of those who dismiss these ridiculous claims, and pretending that it's their flawed thinking at issue, and if they would just open their minds, the world would be a better place, and the burden of proof is entirely on those who DOUBT--because we'll just go ahead and call the doubt "belief" so it works towards our overall agenda.

It wasn't the only part of the book I read, either. The rest of the book was similar. The burden of proof is on the one making the claim--and there is a trend toward pushing the opposite here. I reject the responsibility for proving to an audience of believers that a person can't go 70 years without food and water. It's not my responsibility. It's HIS--and always will be, and that's if I even cared to listen to the explanation, which I wouldn't. It's a complete waste of time.

There is some underhanded and reverse psychology going on here--but have at it. It's not for me to tell anyone what to do or think or not. Please continue enjoying yourselves.

Magister Nemo, you know how much I respect you. You are a wise man indeed--but exhibiting this book is not the proof.

Again, I have a lot of respect for MOST of the discussions on this site--but this is not one of them. Please continue to enjoy yourselves without me.
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