#76273 - 01/29/05 01:10 AM
Why Satanism?
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Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 89
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I noticed a response in a post made in The Chuch of Satan Question and Answers forum. and thought it would make a rather most interesting subject to discuss. I think titles are a most convincing way to not only filter out and draw the proper idealistic individuals but also as a proper way to identify what something is. Without identitiy then all that is left is idiotcy. Satanism is defined by the principles as set forth by our founder Anton Szandor LaVey. Yet why not call it something different some ask? Because if we begin to call Satanism by a different title then it wouldn't be what it is. It would become what people would like to make it and define it as they see fit. Satanism is not a "people" thing but rather a religion for "non-joiners". As quoted on their website, "if you have to ask then you can't afford it". I would also like to point out that I am by no means a representative of the Chuch of Satan so any member of the Priesthood or Agent is welcome to correct me or elaborate on what I have stated. EDIT: This thread has been discussed in leangth.
Edited by AnxiousBeing (01/29/05 06:12 AM)
_________________________
"The Church of Satan is not "homophobic."
"The Church of Satan is not a NAZI organization."
"The Church of Satan is neither racist nor sexist."
"The Church of Satan has not in any way strayed from the philosophy created by Anton LaVey."
Magus Gilmore. A Map for the Misdirected.
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#76274 - 01/29/05 01:38 AM
Re: Why Satanism?
[Re: AnxiousBeing]
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Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Tempe, Arizona
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The great thing about The Satanic Bible is that it is merely a beginning to defining what being a true individual means. And that's all it can be.. a beginning. I think that's what it means to be an individual. To recognize the beginning of it in yourself and to constantly challenge yourself to flesh it out. To me, that's one of the most important parts of what it means to be a Satanist. To be able to stand alone while looking like everyone else or looking like no one else. It's a very powerful part of living, to me.
_________________________
Don't confuse living with reality.
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#76276 - 01/29/05 02:50 AM
Re: Why Satanism?
[Re: AnxiousBeing]
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Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 92
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Good evening, The reason I asked what I asked is because of exactly what you said here; Quote:
I think titles are a most convincing way to not only filter out and draw the proper idealistic individuals but also as a proper way to identify what something is. Without identity then all that is left is idiocy.
Ok. The best way to explain this.
A tree is a tree. A bush is a bush. Rain drops are rain drops. These things are labeled and only labeled because they are a 'constant'.
Red is red, because as our eyes perceive it, it is always red and therefor is a constant.
Consider for a moment, that you're mind is a rolodex. Instead of addresses and phone numbers your mind stores labels. Each thing you see has a name so it can be easily identified in conversation, etc.
Now, we have those 'other' labels.
These other labels are not constant. They are expressions for the best or worse to whomever.
Faggot, rich snob, fuck face, pig, Satanist, Christian, nazi, loser, babe, sexy, etc.
These are all non constants. Most of the 'other' labels are words that aren't even in my vocabulary for several reasons.
Satanism is a fluid/loose idea. As is stated time and time again, "It is up to the individual." Another saying that comes to mind is, "We are all around you....." along side another one that is said, "Besides knowing what a Baphomet is, would you be able to recognize who was and was not a Satanist?"
Nope!, because Satanists don't run around with "labels" stapled to their expensive suits.
One really good example is an essay I read once. In it the writer (I forget who now) mentions "Those Damned Things". They are neither bush nor shrub, (Something something.)
They are just things that are. They aren't this or that.
The idea is that this destroys the whole labeling process, or, your rolodex. If one thing is nothing, then what is all of the rest?
And so this is why I asked, "Why even begin to make a situation confusing by calling yourself something referring to an ism like everyone else?"
Unless one enjoys the conflict of explaining, re-explaining, getting frustrated, aggravated, or just end up going on a rant about what is what.
If this isn't the case, then why the name-calling/labels?
There is a simple solution to what appears to be a problem.
If it isn't a problem then why is it heard and seen so much, in a manner that appears to be problematic?
Secondly, a second solution has already been made.
Quote:
Satanism is defined by the principles as set forth by our founder Anton Szandor LaVey.
Isn't that enough for a person?
Now, here is something that you said, that makes my whole post worth it.
Quote:
....if we begin to call Satanism by a different title then it wouldn't be what it is.
This is where nothing makes sense.
For the sake of argument, I will say that I am a slow learner, and in this, I must refer to CoS ranks as Sports balls in order to remember which is which.
Rank 1. Soccer Ball. Rank 2. Foot Ball. Etc.
Does this make all CoS members sports balls? Further more, and more directly to the point, does this change Satanism in any way? No!, it certainly does not.
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#76277 - 01/29/05 02:57 AM
Re: Why Satanism?
[Re: MagisterParadise]
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Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 89
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Misread what you typed, my mistake. The quote however is found in The Devil's Notebook for those interested in doing some research.
Edited by AnxiousBeing (01/29/05 03:08 AM)
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#76280 - 01/29/05 03:44 AM
Re: Why Satanism?
[Re: Member_7244]
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CoS Reverend
Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
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Quote:
With Mr. LaVey's opinion aside, does anyone else have their own?
Something that doesn't shout, "Look, it says right here in the bible......"
While I'm sure we all have our own personal affinity for the word Satan that drew us to Satanism in the first place, I'll remind you that "The Satanic Bible" defines Satanism as a religion, and as such, there is really no room for "opinion". If Anton Szandor LaVey explains, for instance, the reasons why he called Satanism Satanism, then those are the reasons. Referring to his statements is therefore simply an efficient way to present accurate information without re-hashing what's already been said.
There is no mystery. This religion has not been festering for 2,000 years, and does not require "interpretation" or conjecture. It is simple and straightforward. It is what it says it is.
People used to certain other religions--which are inherently contradictory, ancient and vague--often bristle at those who point to a text and say, "it is so because the Bible tells me so." Those people use their Bible as a shield, to avoid thinking for themselves. The Satanic Bible includes no tall Genesis tale, no virgin birth, no miracles. It does not require faith, it simply defines a certain worldview. One either recognizes one's own nature in that worldview or one does not. There is no need for individual interpretation of the fundamentals of Satanism.
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#76283 - 01/29/05 03:59 AM
Re: Why Satanism?
[Re: Rev_Malebranche]
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Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 92
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I'm getting that anxious feeling I used to get when attempting to get a RHP follower to realize something, but they just wouldn't listen. What you said here; Quote:
"The Satanic Bible" defines Satanism as a religion, and as such, there is really no room for "opinion".
and here;
Quote:
If Anton Szandor LaVey explains, for instance, the reasons why he called Satanism Satanism, then those are the reasons.
Are both very scary, and very Quaker ways of going about being an 'individual'. Leaving no room for debate, questioning ALL things, no matter what they are, etc.
Quote:
There is no mystery.
There isn't. Your absolutely right.
Quote:
This religion has not been festering for 2,000 years
Well, if
Quote:
there is really no room for "opinion"
then I beg to differ on that festering issue. It may not have been for 2,000 years, but 40 is a start.
Quote:
There is no need for individual interpretation of the fundamentals of Satanism.
I never asked anyone to interpret the fundamentals or basics of anything. Not once.
I should have taken this up on a philosophy board. Same subject, minus the title itself. I probably would have gotten a real personal view, from someone ALIVE!
I somehow feel I will fall asleep at the answer but here goes nothing.
Do you think if LaVey were alive today, he would shy away from a thought provoking discussion? Or for that matter, shy away from his own words? Which were, if memory serves me, “Question Everything!”
My reason for asking was not that I thought Satanism was a name that needed to be changed. On the contrary, I love that name, I love it's fundamentals! I love the philosophy, and that is why I am a Satanist.
I was merely asking if people could use their brains. I was very short sighted in asking these sorts of questions here.
My humblest apologies for making my inquiry seem like some menial threat to the basics, or to The Great Dr. LaVey's Religion.
I digress.
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#76285 - 01/29/05 04:02 AM
Re: Why Satanism?
[Re: Member_7244]
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Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 89
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Quote:
A tree is a tree. A bush is a bush. Rain drops are rain drops. These things are labeled and only labeled because they are a 'constant'.
Red is red, because as our eyes perceive it, it is always red and therefor is a constant.
These are constant by the means of our five senses. However when we begin to attach symbolic significance then these can be attributed to that purpose for whatever reason. Such as Ritual and Ceremonial uses.
Quote:
These other labels are not constant. They are expressions for the best or worse to whomever.
Words are tools to be used for communication purposes. This does not mean they cannot be twisted as a symbolic representation. In order to function on a self rational level we must be able to properly come into and out of this mind set. Confusion is created when we fail to recognize when to apply imagination as opposed to when not to.
Quote:
Satanism is a fluid/loose idea.
It is as loose as the imagination. One point you are forgetting is that Satanists are born and not made. Not just anybody can utilize Satanism. When someone attempts to Satanism serves as a double edge sword. It will destroy those who are too foolish to comprehend it and will benefit those with the inborn potential.
Quote:
"Besides knowing what a Baphomet is, would you be able to recognize who was and was not a Satanist?"
Ah this is a most excellent point that you bring up! Of course you could not but it is not up to you to identify just who is and isn't a Satanist. It is up to the person themselves to discover if they are identified in The Satanic Bible, not you. Of course to paraphrase the Doktor, "those with a keen eyes may be able to tell".
Quote:
One really good example is an essay I read once. In it the writer (I forget who now) mentions "Those Damned Things". They are neither bush nor shrub, (Something something.)
They are just things that are. They aren't this or that.
from The Satanic Bible.
Quote:
In LaVey's view, the Devil was not that, but rather a dark, hidden force in nature responsible for the workings of earthly affairs, a force for which neither science nor religion had any explanation.
This is the vital force that we call Satan in it's richest format.
Quote:
If it isn't a problem then why is it heard and seen so much, in a manner that appears to be problematic?
Because idiots will always create more problems than answers for their own lives.
Quote:
Unless one enjoys the conflict of explaining, re-explaining, getting frustrated, aggravated, or just end up going on a rant about what is what.
I don't explain anything to anyone about Satanism ever in public. Nor do I in private unless I am personally asked. I direct them to the proper literature and website but never do I speak for the Chuch of Satan. If this individual cannot comprehend after the information provided then they will sink. Satanists are the clever folks who get it and utilize it to their advantage  .
I said, Quote:
Satanism is defined by the principles as set forth by our founder Anton Szandor LaVey.
You said, Quote:
Isn't that enough for a person?
Please elaborate on this.
I said,Quote:
....if we begin to call Satanism by a different title then it wouldn't be what it is.
You said,Quote:
This is where nothing makes sense.
Why not? Perhaps I am wrong, can you tell me why I would be if I indeed am?
A very well essay was written years ago on this subject, it may provide additional insight. Recognizing pseudo - satanisim by Magister Nemo.
_________________________
"The Church of Satan is not "homophobic."
"The Church of Satan is not a NAZI organization."
"The Church of Satan is neither racist nor sexist."
"The Church of Satan has not in any way strayed from the philosophy created by Anton LaVey."
Magus Gilmore. A Map for the Misdirected.
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#76286 - 01/29/05 04:19 AM
Re: Why Satanism?
[Re: AnxiousBeing]
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Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 92
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I said, Quote: Satanism is defined by the principles as set forth by our founder Anton Szandor LaVey. You said, Quote: Isn't that enough for a person? Please elaborate on this. I think you already answered this your self. Principles are all there really needs to be. Example. A Navy Seals trainee actually makes it. O.K. Now that he is a Master in his feild, does he label himself Master Seal and start a forum for it titled "For Master Seals"? If he does, O.K. But Why? If he is a seal, and knows it, chances are the people that go to visit his forum are going to be seals, or people who wish to know about seals. We already know what happens when someone comes in to spread rhetoric about the Airforce being better! So what purpose does this serve? Aesthetic value is not really an answer. Like I said, Science has the same defnition for me personally, but the name was already taken. Quote:
You said,
Quote:
This is where nothing makes sense.
I mis typed what I meant to say, which was, "What you said [here] isn't adding up to what you said [here]. However, you did clarify, so it is irrelevent now.
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#76287 - 01/29/05 04:23 AM
Re: Why Satanism?
[Re: Member_7244]
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CoS Reverend
Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
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Quote:
My humblest apologies for making my inquiry seem like some menial threat to the basics, or to The Great Dr. LaVey's Religion.
I can assure you that your inquiry was commonplace and anything but a threat. Satanism, the religion defined by Anton LaVey, will outlast you, and so will the Church of Satan.
Quote:
I was merely asking if people could use their brains. I was very short sighted in asking these sorts of questions here.
And that was the fifty million dollar remark, folks.
The funny thing is, you have no idea what you're missing. You're so busy philosophically jerking yourself off that you're missing the very sorts of discussions that you THINK you are after. We're just five steps ahead of you. I've already watched (with increasing disinterest) this very discussion occur 20 or 30 times.
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#76289 - 01/29/05 04:33 AM
Re: Why Satanism?
[Re: Member_7244]
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Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 89
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Quote:
Principles are all there really needs to be.
Principles are the foundation. Satanists are helping to create and not become the repetative nature of other religions. Eeverything after the foundation must be placed upon the foundation. If it's not then it crumbles and we begin to fall into self denial.
Quote:
Like I said, Science has the same defnition for me personally, but the name was already taken.
Is science works for you then great. However science is not Satanism. Scientists are too entrapped in the mind set that they must know everything where as the Satanist accepts the unsolved and uses that as a tool. To be honest, this is actually harder for me to explain than I thought. Hmm, I hope this makes some sense to you.
_________________________
"The Church of Satan is not "homophobic."
"The Church of Satan is not a NAZI organization."
"The Church of Satan is neither racist nor sexist."
"The Church of Satan has not in any way strayed from the philosophy created by Anton LaVey."
Magus Gilmore. A Map for the Misdirected.
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#76290 - 01/29/05 04:33 AM
When do you stop?
[Re: Member_7244]
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CoS Member
Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 396
Loc: Hungary
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Quote:
Or for that matter, shy away from his own words? Which were, if memory serves me, “Question Everything!”
Yes, question everything. Even question this very statement of questioning everything. Then question the questioning of questioning everything, etc.
When do you stop and why?
The answer is very easy and natural for a Satanist. (I might add that it's even in The Satanic Bible. )
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#76292 - 01/29/05 04:37 AM
Re: Why Satanism?
[Re: Member_7244]
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CoS Member
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 517
Loc: Cleveland
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Quote:
I'm getting that anxious feeling I used to get when attempting to get a RHP follower to realize something, but they just wouldn't listen.
PSST! Not only won't they listen, they won't understand.
Love the new title, by the way. Masterdebater
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#76295 - 01/29/05 06:31 AM
Re: Why Satanism?
[Re: AnxiousBeing]
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CoS Warlock
Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
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I recommend to read this excellent posting for an answer by Magister Nemo.
_________________________
~ Suum cuique. ~
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#76296 - 01/29/05 06:37 AM
Re: Why Satanism?
[Re: Jack_Bauer]
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Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 89
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Hmm, I am going to be resting shortly after I post this but I wanted to ask you one question. I just edited my post, did you see the additional edit? I think I was editing as you were posting. I do thank you however for recommending that answer. It is most informative. By the way I enjoy your posts Lars .
Edited by AnxiousBeing (01/29/05 06:44 AM)
_________________________
"The Church of Satan is not "homophobic."
"The Church of Satan is not a NAZI organization."
"The Church of Satan is neither racist nor sexist."
"The Church of Satan has not in any way strayed from the philosophy created by Anton LaVey."
Magus Gilmore. A Map for the Misdirected.
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#76297 - 01/29/05 07:01 AM
Re: Why Satanism?
[Re: AnxiousBeing]
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 106
Loc: England
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Why Satanism?
It's an acceptance of my humanity and the essence of humanity (what it is to be human), and man's place in the universe.
A bit of a "no-brainer" as far as I can tell.
_________________________
All Hail Me!
FIRST & LAST & ALWAYS
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#76300 - 01/29/05 10:48 AM
Re: Why Satanism?
[Re: AnxiousBeing]
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CoS Warlock
Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
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Yes, I did not notice that you edited your post.
Good to see you found the link for yourself.
Thanks for your feedback.
_________________________
~ Suum cuique. ~
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#76301 - 01/29/05 10:52 AM
Re: Why Satanism?
[Re: Quaark]
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CoS Warlock
Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
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One of the best posts ever made here at LttD, in my opinion.Yes, a most excellent exposition in the tradition of "cutting through the bullshit".  Hail Magister Nemo!
_________________________
~ Suum cuique. ~
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#76302 - 01/29/05 01:36 PM
No debates.
[Re: Member_7244]
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CoS Magister
Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12019
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
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What a lot of frustrated (and probably bored) people do not seem to understand is that like reality itself, Satanism is not an issue of debate. It is an issue of identification. Words have meanings. Otherwise they are just noises. "Satanism" is a defined word. Anton LaVey took the trouble to define it and wrote entire books on the subject after forming it as a religion. "Debate" is not what sane people do with reality. This is an aspect of reality. Those who can't cope with this required fundamental of civilized communication lose their registration. As you have. I am always amused by those with hidden agendas who come here and want to redefine Satanism until it matches their own agenda. That is not "discussion", by the way. It is usually called "psychosis".  Despite beliefs to the contrary, this is not a place for debate. It is a place for discussion and clarification. For those who wish to enrich their understanding of Satanism as it is these forums can be of value. There is no debate desired nor engaged on what is already defined. There is only the need to read, understand and apply the definitions. Definitions, yes. Debates, no. It is just that simple.
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#76303 - 01/29/05 01:38 PM
Re: "Nuff said"
[Re: Adveser]
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CoS Magister
Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12019
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
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Satanism is practical. You have cut to the heart with this direct and simple understanding. Thank you. 
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#76304 - 01/29/05 02:06 PM
Re: Titles less important than honesty.
[Re: Member_7244]
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CoS Magister
Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12019
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
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For the confident, titles are irrelevant for self-reference. In this thread I would much rather have had you been simply open to discussion instead of coming here with a thinly veiled anti-Satanic agenda. Talk about missing the forest for the trees! Well, better luck with "science".
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#76305 - 01/30/05 01:06 AM
Re: Why Satanism?
[Re: AnxiousBeing]
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CoS Member
Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1219
Loc: Amerika
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AnxiousBeing, Thank you for starting the thread that got one of the monkeys I don't like banned.  I tired of his rhetorical gymnastics long ago. Again, thanks for making my day. Sincerely, Noel
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#76306 - 01/30/05 04:42 AM
Re: Titles less important than honesty.
[Re: Nemo]
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Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 60
Loc: Romania
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"For the confident, titles are irrelevant for self-reference." - So much is true. It took me some years to realize that a couple of years ago I was very interested in getting more (and sometimes useless) titles. Now I'm a member of an important political party in my counrty but years before I was in a different right-wing political movement in wich I considered titles to be very important. They were actually uselles since nowadays with less titles but with much more friends and people near me I can do a lot more.
"Titles less important than honesty." In this case, the way I see things I do not agree with you, no offence. Just consider that everybody belives what the priest says even if he's not necesarily honest - people just belive him to be so and often he considers himself to be a honest person. By the way, a good liar must be considered by the others to be a honest person or else he's a "bad" liar.
Also I wolud say that there are situation were a person just has to lie, he can't tell the truth in that particular moment - maybe he will tell the truth later or never.
An example of this is delivering bad news to your boss, bad news for wich more people are responsible. In this case it's beter to lie or to avoid the answer and let somebody else to bring the news.
As a conclusion I consider titles to be irelevant for the confident as you said but usualy to be more important than honesty. As long as crowds belive you're honest you can tell them any lie.
_________________________
"Liberate Tuteme Ex Inferis!"
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