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#81117 - 02/23/05 12:02 PM Know your Greeks and Romans
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Once upon a time the Greek and Roman classics were the foundation of education, and for a reason.

This was before the Dewey revolution and the rise of mass mediocrity.

By the time I was in public schools (in the 70s) if the Greeks and Romans were mentioned at all, it was superficially and almost designed to make them seem as boring and irrelevant as possible. I can only imagine how it is now. Such is the state of things.

Virtually everything that came after them was derived from, or in response to them. They are the nucleus of subsequent Western Civilization; literature, history, philosophy, etc. Whatever your field of study, a background in the classics is an asset.

For example, many people here profess a fondness for Nietzsche – but how far can a person really understand Nietzsche without a background in Greek literature, especially the tragic dramatists?

The same can be said for Hobbes, Machiavelli, and practically anyone considered part of the “western canon.”

Aside from all that, they are interesting – reading them for their own sake justifies itself.

Most of this material is available in decent translation for free online. It is ALL available in almost ANY library, or can be had in inexpensive paperback editions from any second-hand bookstore.

1. Homer (9th Century B.C.?)
Iliad
Odyssey

2. Aeschylus (c.525-456 B.C.)
Tragedies

3. Sophocles (c.495-406 B.C.)
Tragedies

4. Herodotus (c.484-425 B.C.)
History

5. Euripides (c.485-406 B.C.)
Tragedies
(esp. Medea, Hippolytus, The Bacchae)

6. Thucydides (c.460-400 B.C.)
History of the Peloponnesian War

7. Hippocrates (c.460-377? B.C.)
Medical Writings

8. Aristophanes (c.448-380 B.C.)
Comedies
(esp. The Clouds, The Birds, The Frogs)

9. Plato (c.427-347 B.C.)
Dialogues
(esp. The Republic, Symposium, Phaedo, Meno, Apology, Phaedrus, Protagoras, Gorgias, Sophist, Theaetetus)

10. Aristotle (384-322 B.C.)
Works
(esp. Organon, Physics, Metaphysics, On the Soul, The Nicomachean Ethics, Politics, Rhetoric, Poetics)

11. Epicurus (c.341-270 B.C.)
Letter to Herodotus
Letter to Menoeceus

12. Cicero (106-43 B.C.)
Works
(esp. Orations, On Friendship, On Old Age)

13. Lucretius (c.95-55 B.C.)
On the Nature of Things

14. Virgil (70-19 B.C.)
Works

15. Horace (65-8 B.C.)
Works
(esp. Odes and Epodes, The Art of Poetry)

16. Livy (59 B.C.-A.D. 17)
History of Rome

17. Ovid (43 B.C.-A.D. 17)
Works
(esp. Metamorphoses)

18. Plutarch (c.45-120)
Parallel Lives
Moralia

19. Tacitus (c.55-117)
Histories
Annals
Agricola
Germania

20. Epictetus (c.60-120)
Discourses
Encheiridion (Handbook)

21. Lucian (c.120-c.190)
Works
(esp. The True Way to Write History, The True History, The Sale of Creeds)

22. Marcus Aurelius (121-180)
Meditations

23. Galen (c. 130-200)
On the Natural Faculties

24. Plotinus (205-270)
The Enneads

There are many others, but these could be considered “the core.”

What does this have to do with Satanism?

You figure it out.
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Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
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#81118 - 02/23/05 12:20 PM Re: Know your Greeks and Romans [Re: Svengali]
SubOptimo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 474
Loc: Germany
I liked Ovid, this is a really delicate lecture.
If we are on classics, the book Utopia from Thomas Morus has to be pointed out. He was the anchestor of all SF and Utopy book written later. He was a kind of mediveal Aldous Huxley.

Also worthy to mention:
'Sun Tzu' or 'Sunzi', the Art of War - written by a chinese general around 1000 b.c.

'Leviathan', Thomas Hobbes - about society and human nature.

'Tibetanian Book of Death' - Impressive. About crossing The border.

'Mahabharatha' - Inidan Epos, I never really figured out.

Thank You for this thread Reverend!
HS!

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#81119 - 02/23/05 12:22 PM Re: Know your Greeks and Romans [Re: SubOptimo]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
I was using "Classics" in the traditional sense of refering to Classical Greek and Roman lit.

I would rather this thread not turn into another "great books" thread that degenerates into people recommending Ayn Rand and Steven King.

ps. pull the trigger.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#81120 - 02/23/05 12:29 PM Re: Know your Greeks and Romans [Re: Svengali]
Noel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1220
Loc: Amerika
I especially think the proponents of free will should read Oedipus Rex.

And a good example of how crucial knowledge of the ancients is to education can be seen in literary analyses of Beckett's play Happy Days.

Without knowledge of the man-in-the-box theme of Oedipus Rex, it is confusing to determine why Winnie is progressively buried deeper and deeper in a mound of dirt through the first and second acts.

And when I read the play for a modern drama course, I felt saddened that our professor had to spell this point out, complete with man-in-the-box diagram scrawled on the board, and see the look of consternation on his face regarding abject ignorance of what were the basics of his generation.

I've been reading Thus Spoke Zarathustra of late, and his point about the publicization of education seems one of several reasons why the bar has been lowered to where it is easily stepped over by subhumans nowadays.

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#81121 - 02/23/05 02:00 PM Re: Know your Greeks and Romans [Re: Svengali]
Virus9 Offline
CoS Priest

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 2108
Loc: Florida
I guess I was lucky when it came to my public education. While I wasn't directly exposed to many of the classics in school, I did have a few teachers that realized just how much the standard curriculum bored me. Every now and then they would suggest "special projects" to help me bring my grades back up.

Unfotunately teachers aren't able to give that kind of individual attention to their students these days. When I was in school, the average class size in my state was about fifteen to twenty students. A class of thirty was considered overcrowded. Now the average class size is more along the lines of fifty students and schools are still not being built fast enough to keep up with the population growth.

And to think, many of the teachers still praise John Dewey for his contributions to assembly line education.

Public education in this country has always been in the business of training children to be obedient wage slaves. Those who want better for themselves and their children would do well to familiarize themselves with the list you've provided.
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#81122 - 02/23/05 02:49 PM Re: Know your Greeks and Romans [Re: Svengali]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
>They are the nucleus of subsequent Western Civilization; literature,
>history, philosophy, etc. Whatever your field of study, a background
>in the classics is an asset.

Mathematics is certainly in that list too, as far as the Greeks are concerned. Books like Euclid's Elements unquestionably cover the bedrock of planar and solid geometry, and also popularized the whole concept of having mathematical proofs derived from a minimal set of axioms. The Arabs thankfully saved these works from the torches of medieval Xtians.

These days people convince themselves that they're either "math n' science" people or "art n' history" people. But to the Greeks, the sciences and the arts were all interrelated. It's taboo now a days to take a mathematical analysis of music, though that doesn't erase the fact that the scales of today have their roots in the ratio study work of Pythagoras (and later, Ptolemy).
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#81123 - 02/23/05 02:58 PM Re: Know your Greeks and Romans [Re: Bill_M]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
"Mea Culpa!" [displaying my own limitations]

+ Euclid (fl.c. 300 B.C.)
Elements

+ Archimedes (c.287-212 B.C.)
Works
(esp. On the Equilibrium of Planes, On Floating Bodies, The Sand-Reckoner)

+ Apollonius of Perga (fl.c.240 B.C.)
Conic Sections

+ Nicomachus of Gerasa (fl.c. 100 A.D.)
Introduction to Arithmetic

+ Ptolemy (c.100-170; fl. 127-151)
Almagest
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#81124 - 02/23/05 03:02 PM Re: Know your Greeks and Romans [Re: Svengali]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
The most important thing about Romans is that a good knowledge of Latin vastly improves one’s English vocabulary.
HAIL SATAN!
Magda

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#81125 - 02/23/05 03:19 PM Re: Know your Greeks and Romans [Re: Svengali]
man_mind Offline
Banned

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 957
Why hasn't anyone thought about making a little extra money by tutoring children ages 5 and up?
(Assuming of course that no one has!)

I think come people here could produce genius. I try my hardest with my 3 year old, and it pays off.

However, with the constant dislike of our surroundings, I only suggest that people such as Svengali, Bill M, and others could get their arms around the shoulders of teenagers and other young folk and maybe teach them a thing or two.

I try when the oppurtunity presents itself. I am talking about something larger, though.

Leaving it up to the public schools is only bidding your time till the next "Why our education systems suck" essay.

That just seems like passiveness to a problem.

I think people with such intellect, intelligence, and all around great character, should shed these knowledge pools with a select hand full. I’d call it the CoS education program. (Joke)
With Satan aside, and without mention of Satanic Philosophy at all, something like that could go along way. Just my humble opinion.

I know. “Why would I want to?” “Why do I care?” I’m sure these suggestions just make your back hair stand up in disgust! I think there is room for improvement in society. I know that, sure, people will find their way to Satanism, but I see absolutely no harm in giving it out once in a while. If it fails, the worst you would have done was waist an hour of your day.

Who knows; something to think about, maybe.

I enjoyed your post. Thank you for sharing that list.


Edited by man_mind (02/23/05 03:19 PM)
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#81126 - 02/23/05 03:26 PM Re: Know your Greeks and Romans [Re: Svengali]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Hail Svengali!

(I'm going to go out on a limb and say I don't really care for Classical thought much, with the possible exception of Plotinus whom I haven't had the chance to really sit down with yet but who seems to have a very different attitude and style from his predecessors. I can say I don't care for it because I have actually studied it.)
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#81127 - 02/24/05 03:38 AM Re: Know your Greeks and Romans [Re: Svengali]
False_Messiah78 Offline
Banned

Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 1449
Loc: New York State
When I was in high school we read The Odessey (I believe I spelled it right, forgive me if I didn't). That was about it as far as the classics.
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#81128 - 02/24/05 04:16 AM Re: Know your Greeks and Romans [Re: Svengali]
SubOptimo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 474
Loc: Germany
Quote:

ps. pull the trigger.



Already tried it, causes only pain. It is an airgun!

Sorry for being off-topic.

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#81129 - 02/24/05 12:58 PM Re: Know your Greeks and Romans [Re: man_mind]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
>However, with the constant dislike of our surroundings, I
>only suggest that people such as Svengali, Bill M, and
>others could get their arms around the shoulders of
>teenagers and other young folk and maybe teach them a
>thing or two.

I'll take that as a complement, so thanks. I've certainly given thought to teaching. But then my thoughts were "Hmm, do I want to teach math in a public school to chaotic kids who don't want to be there, or do I want to go into engineering where I can make three times as much money and work without lecturing?"

Though you mention tutoring, which I've certainly looked into before. I wouldn't mind getting paid to do one on one teaching where I don't have to worry about stupid things like dress code enforcement and note passing. But I think my state requires a teaching license and what not. It's also a matter of time, of course.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

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#81130 - 02/24/05 01:55 PM Re: Know your Greeks and Romans [Re: Svengali]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
>>+ Archimedes (c.287-212 B.C.)
>>Works

I had a friend who was always critcizing him for his bad science. Granted there was certainly some bad science that the Greeks had. Instead of following what's now known as the scientific method, they usually figured that if the logic made sense then you didn't need experimentation.

Still, I kept telling this friend of mine that this shouldn't overshadow Archimedes and his accomplishments. Some of his science was quite good (levers, desnity with the whole bathtub story, etc.) And he was arguably one of history's greatest mathematicians.

But whether it's math, history, or some other subject, it seems that so few people have that sense of curiosity. I'm sure the herd has always been like this, but again public schooling, particularly the classes at every grade made for lower levels, seems to do little to stimulate any desire to learn. What I find really despicable though are those who pride themselves in being ignorant. Strange that the popular accusation "You have too much time on your hands!" is only used on people who create something unusual or creative, and is said by people who spend all their free time watching sitcoms or playing their X-Box.

I'm embarrassed to say that even in my own college, the 101-104 level math courses were more about trying to complete (or copy) computer lab assignments with a group than learning anything. Later on I was a teaching assistant, and it got frustrating to see these students with no concept of mathematical proof and rather inept without their graphing calculators. Argg...I'll stop my rant here.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

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#81131 - 02/24/05 05:51 PM Re: Know your Greeks and Romans [Re: Bill_M]
Isabel23 Offline
CoS Magistra

Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 2041
Bill,

Yes! It's the curiosity factor. It seems to be expunged by the time they hit 3rd grade. No wonder they consider life to be boring.

What little I remember of grade school consists of continual asking of questions on my part, and a complete disconnect from the other little herdlings. I thought at the time that there was something wrong with ME! However, I just couldn't keep my mouth shut.

Speaking of Archimedes, when I got a children's book on him, I discovered that it had gotten his displacement discovery wrong. It was a long time ago, so I don't remember exactly where they messed up, but I checked and rechecked. Yup. It was wrong.


Edited by Isabel23 (02/25/05 10:42 AM)
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