Once upon a time the Greek and Roman classics were the foundation of education, and for a reason.

This was before the Dewey revolution and the rise of mass mediocrity.

By the time I was in public schools (in the 70s) if the Greeks and Romans were mentioned at all, it was superficially and almost designed to make them seem as boring and irrelevant as possible. I can only imagine how it is now. Such is the state of things.

Virtually everything that came after them was derived from, or in response to them. They are the nucleus of subsequent Western Civilization; literature, history, philosophy, etc. Whatever your field of study, a background in the classics is an asset.

For example, many people here profess a fondness for Nietzsche – but how far can a person really understand Nietzsche without a background in Greek literature, especially the tragic dramatists?

The same can be said for Hobbes, Machiavelli, and practically anyone considered part of the “western canon.”

Aside from all that, they are interesting – reading them for their own sake justifies itself.

Most of this material is available in decent translation for free online. It is ALL available in almost ANY library, or can be had in inexpensive paperback editions from any second-hand bookstore.

1. Homer (9th Century B.C.?)
Iliad
Odyssey

2. Aeschylus (c.525-456 B.C.)
Tragedies

3. Sophocles (c.495-406 B.C.)
Tragedies

4. Herodotus (c.484-425 B.C.)
History

5. Euripides (c.485-406 B.C.)
Tragedies
(esp. Medea, Hippolytus, The Bacchae)

6. Thucydides (c.460-400 B.C.)
History of the Peloponnesian War

7. Hippocrates (c.460-377? B.C.)
Medical Writings

8. Aristophanes (c.448-380 B.C.)
Comedies
(esp. The Clouds, The Birds, The Frogs)

9. Plato (c.427-347 B.C.)
Dialogues
(esp. The Republic, Symposium, Phaedo, Meno, Apology, Phaedrus, Protagoras, Gorgias, Sophist, Theaetetus)

10. Aristotle (384-322 B.C.)
Works
(esp. Organon, Physics, Metaphysics, On the Soul, The Nicomachean Ethics, Politics, Rhetoric, Poetics)

11. Epicurus (c.341-270 B.C.)
Letter to Herodotus
Letter to Menoeceus

12. Cicero (106-43 B.C.)
Works
(esp. Orations, On Friendship, On Old Age)

13. Lucretius (c.95-55 B.C.)
On the Nature of Things

14. Virgil (70-19 B.C.)
Works

15. Horace (65-8 B.C.)
Works
(esp. Odes and Epodes, The Art of Poetry)

16. Livy (59 B.C.-A.D. 17)
History of Rome

17. Ovid (43 B.C.-A.D. 17)
Works
(esp. Metamorphoses)

18. Plutarch (c.45-120)
Parallel Lives
Moralia

19. Tacitus (c.55-117)
Histories
Annals
Agricola
Germania

20. Epictetus (c.60-120)
Discourses
Encheiridion (Handbook)

21. Lucian (c.120-c.190)
Works
(esp. The True Way to Write History, The True History, The Sale of Creeds)

22. Marcus Aurelius (121-180)
Meditations

23. Galen (c. 130-200)
On the Natural Faculties

24. Plotinus (205-270)
The Enneads

There are many others, but these could be considered “the core.”

What does this have to do with Satanism?

You figure it out.

I liked Ovid, this is a really delicate lecture.
If we are on classics, the book Utopia from Thomas Morus has to be pointed out. He was the anchestor of all SF and Utopy book written later. He was a kind of mediveal Aldous Huxley.

Also worthy to mention:
'Sun Tzu' or 'Sunzi', the Art of War - written by a chinese general around 1000 b.c.

'Leviathan', Thomas Hobbes - about society and human nature.

'Tibetanian Book of Death' - Impressive. About crossing The border.

'Mahabharatha' - Inidan Epos, I never really figured out.

Thank You for this thread Reverend!
HS!

I was using "Classics" in the traditional sense of refering to Classical Greek and Roman lit.

I would rather this thread not turn into another "great books" thread that degenerates into people recommending Ayn Rand and Steven King.

ps. pull the trigger.

I especially think the proponents of free will should read Oedipus Rex.

And a good example of how crucial knowledge of the ancients is to education can be seen in literary analyses of Beckett's play Happy Days.

Without knowledge of the man-in-the-box theme of Oedipus Rex, it is confusing to determine why Winnie is progressively buried deeper and deeper in a mound of dirt through the first and second acts.

And when I read the play for a modern drama course, I felt saddened that our professor had to spell this point out, complete with man-in-the-box diagram scrawled on the board, and see the look of consternation on his face regarding abject ignorance of what were the basics of his generation.

I've been reading Thus Spoke Zarathustra of late, and his point about the publicization of education seems one of several reasons why the bar has been lowered to where it is easily stepped over by subhumans nowadays.

I guess I was lucky when it came to my public education. While I wasn't directly exposed to many of the classics in school, I did have a few teachers that realized just how much the standard curriculum bored me. Every now and then they would suggest "special projects" to help me bring my grades back up.

Unfotunately teachers aren't able to give that kind of individual attention to their students these days. When I was in school, the average class size in my state was about fifteen to twenty students. A class of thirty was considered overcrowded. Now the average class size is more along the lines of fifty students and schools are still not being built fast enough to keep up with the population growth.

And to think, many of the teachers still praise John Dewey for his contributions to assembly line education.

Public education in this country has always been in the business of training children to be obedient wage slaves. Those who want better for themselves and their children would do well to familiarize themselves with the list you've provided.

>They are the nucleus of subsequent Western Civilization; literature,
>history, philosophy, etc. Whatever your field of study, a background
>in the classics is an asset.

Mathematics is certainly in that list too, as far as the Greeks are concerned. Books like Euclid's Elements unquestionably cover the bedrock of planar and solid geometry, and also popularized the whole concept of having mathematical proofs derived from a minimal set of axioms. The Arabs thankfully saved these works from the torches of medieval Xtians.

These days people convince themselves that they're either "math n' science" people or "art n' history" people. But to the Greeks, the sciences and the arts were all interrelated. It's taboo now a days to take a mathematical analysis of music, though that doesn't erase the fact that the scales of today have their roots in the ratio study work of Pythagoras (and later, Ptolemy).

"Mea Culpa!" [displaying my own limitations]

+ Euclid (fl.c. 300 B.C.)
Elements

+ Archimedes (c.287-212 B.C.)
Works
(esp. On the Equilibrium of Planes, On Floating Bodies, The Sand-Reckoner)

+ Apollonius of Perga (fl.c.240 B.C.)
Conic Sections

+ Nicomachus of Gerasa (fl.c. 100 A.D.)
Introduction to Arithmetic

+ Ptolemy (c.100-170; fl. 127-151)
Almagest

The most important thing about Romans is that a good knowledge of Latin vastly improves one’s English vocabulary.
HAIL SATAN!
Magda

Why hasn't anyone thought about making a little extra money by tutoring children ages 5 and up?
(Assuming of course that no one has!)

I think come people here could produce genius. I try my hardest with my 3 year old, and it pays off.

However, with the constant dislike of our surroundings, I only suggest that people such as Svengali, Bill M, and others could get their arms around the shoulders of teenagers and other young folk and maybe teach them a thing or two.

I try when the oppurtunity presents itself. I am talking about something larger, though.

Leaving it up to the public schools is only bidding your time till the next "Why our education systems suck" essay.

That just seems like passiveness to a problem.

I think people with such intellect, intelligence, and all around great character, should shed these knowledge pools with a select hand full. I’d call it the CoS education program. (Joke)
With Satan aside, and without mention of Satanic Philosophy at all, something like that could go along way. Just my humble opinion.

I know. “Why would I want to?” “Why do I care?” I’m sure these suggestions just make your back hair stand up in disgust! I think there is room for improvement in society. I know that, sure, people will find their way to Satanism, but I see absolutely no harm in giving it out once in a while. If it fails, the worst you would have done was waist an hour of your day.

Who knows; something to think about, maybe.

I enjoyed your post. Thank you for sharing that list.

When I was in high school we read The Odessey (I believe I spelled it right, forgive me if I didn't). That was about it as far as the classics.

Quote:

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ps. pull the trigger.

---

Already tried it, causes only pain. It is an airgun!

Sorry for being off-topic.

>However, with the constant dislike of our surroundings, I
>only suggest that people such as Svengali, Bill M, and
>others could get their arms around the shoulders of
>teenagers and other young folk and maybe teach them a
>thing or two.

I'll take that as a complement, so thanks. I've certainly given thought to teaching. But then my thoughts were "Hmm, do I want to teach math in a public school to chaotic kids who don't want to be there, or do I want to go into engineering where I can make three times as much money and work without lecturing?"

Though you mention tutoring, which I've certainly looked into before. I wouldn't mind getting paid to do one on one teaching where I don't have to worry about stupid things like dress code enforcement and note passing. But I think my state requires a teaching license and what not. It's also a matter of time, of course.

>>+ Archimedes (c.287-212 B.C.)
>>Works

I had a friend who was always critcizing him for his bad science. Granted there was certainly some bad science that the Greeks had. Instead of following what's now known as the scientific method, they usually figured that if the logic made sense then you didn't need experimentation.

Still, I kept telling this friend of mine that this shouldn't overshadow Archimedes and his accomplishments. Some of his science was quite good (levers, desnity with the whole bathtub story, etc.) And he was arguably one of history's greatest mathematicians.

But whether it's math, history, or some other subject, it seems that so few people have that sense of curiosity. I'm sure the herd has always been like this, but again public schooling, particularly the classes at every grade made for lower levels, seems to do little to stimulate any desire to learn. What I find really despicable though are those who pride themselves in being ignorant. Strange that the popular accusation "You have too much time on your hands!" is only used on people who create something unusual or creative, and is said by people who spend all their free time watching sitcoms or playing their X-Box.

I'm embarrassed to say that even in my own college, the 101-104 level math courses were more about trying to complete (or copy) computer lab assignments with a group than learning anything. Later on I was a teaching assistant, and it got frustrating to see these students with no concept of mathematical proof and rather inept without their graphing calculators. Argg...I'll stop my rant here.

Bill,

Yes! It's the curiosity factor. It seems to be expunged by the time they hit 3rd grade. No wonder they consider life to be boring.

What little I remember of grade school consists of continual asking of questions on my part, and a complete disconnect from the other little herdlings. I thought at the time that there was something wrong with ME! However, I just couldn't keep my mouth shut.

Speaking of Archimedes, when I got a children's book on him, I discovered that it had gotten his displacement discovery wrong. It was a long time ago, so I don't remember exactly where they messed up, but I checked and rechecked. Yup. It was wrong.

And let us not forget one of the rhetoricians: Gorgias.

He had quite a silver tongue.

I grew up soaking up as much as I could regarding the Greek/Roman myths; I read Homers works before I was in High School & they were required; I adored them, and still do. I find it dissapointing in general, the educational system nowadays; and sadly, I doubt most teens could comprehend Homer's works anymore. teaching standards aren't what they used to be.

That book list was a trip through memory lane.
I was home-schooled before it became popular, and I read many of these books without knowing they were supposed to be dry.

Plutarch's Lives opened up my curiousity to ancient Greece, its descriptions of the people, their everyday life and adventures fired my imagination.
That led me to Homer and then The Histories of Herodotus. One thing led to the other and they never seemed dull to me.

It's all in the expectation and presentation of the teacher and other children surrounding the child. If the child is around a teacher who isn't excited about the subject, or kids who are whining and acting up because they are bored, an otherwise interested child can be negatively influenced. My parents loved the stuff and made it interesting and fun.

While other kids my age were reading Beverly Cleary, I read Cicero and learned my first lessons in arguing well. Lucretius and his On the Nature of Things had me identifying myself as an Epicurean when I was in seventh grade!

Looking back on those old books now makes me see how these writings influenced my life.

I agree. Time spent in the class room would be a slightly stupid endeavor. You would be under-paid and you would teach only two out of ten students. The truth is in what ShadowWalker stated about the interested students surroundings, unfortunately.

I do think home schooling needs a degree, but as far as I know; according to a friend of mine who obtained a certificate in that field, it didn't take too much time or effort.

Well, if you do, good for the one you teach. I'm glad it was a compliment, but it was only meant to be honest.

>>"Mea Culpa!" [displaying my own limitations]

Actually I must confess that Sophocles is really the only one on the first list I read. Though the Plato stuff has spilled over to the math now and then. His work has the only known information on Pythagoras, I think. I also see Xtians who cite Tacitus' "Annals" in support of the idea of a historical Jesus, but a check on the dates shows that the argument is quite bogus.



"There once lived a man named Oedipus Rex.
You may have heard about his odd complex.
His name appears in Freud's index
'cause he LOVED his mother.

His rivals used to say quite a bit,
that as a monarch he was most unfit.
But still in all they had to admit
that he LOVED his mother." - Tom Lehrer, Oedipus Rex

The Church of Satan is entirely in support of home schooling:

http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/MandatoryEducation.htm

I don't have children, but am self-educated with an extremely negative history with public schools, so I pay attention to educational options, just out of my own interest. There are some excellent home schooling programs along the lines of The Great Books Foundation, Hirsch's Cultural Literacy programs, and the traditional Trivium/Quadriviam approach (although the Quadrivium has expanded considerably).

and Julius Caesar's works.

And to think I almost doubted you

I've printed out a copy of this sheet with the hopes of getting around to reading some of the mentioned entries. I loved Greek Mythology as a kid, and also enjoyed a "History of Philosophy" course during college that gave an overview of the works of Plato and various other early thinkers. It's too bad people don't pay greater attention to this stuff, as I've seen from my own brief experiences the foundation you've spoken of. Having been a big fan of Ayn Rand and Nietzsche, I also see how philosophers routinely refer back to the Greeks and Romans to re-examine old ideas and arguments, something your average student of modern and/or existentialist philosophy can't handle as a result of their lack of familiarity with "old" writers.

As a side note, I'm also beginning to think that one reason for the growing myopia of most people about modern cultural values and Christianity is rooted in the fact that your average person knows of nothing beyond the way things are right now. This lack of historical grounding contributes to the conformity of thought and values that seems to be pervasive at this point in history.