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#83003 - 03/04/05 06:12 PM Curious about the Queens hate crimes case
vvreporter Offline


Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 4
Hi there. I'm a reporter working on a story about the hate crimes case involving a Satanist from Queens. The criminal case is moving forward as a hate crime, and a trial is set for this spring.

I've spoken with CoS High Priest Peter Gilmore, and he suggested that I start a post here. I'm curious how other Satanists are reacting to the case -- it's the first time New York's hate-crime law has been extended to a follower of the philosophies of the Church of Satan.

I'm curious to hear people's thoughts on this case. Or on hate-crime legislation generally? Is it a good thing Satanism is being protected by such laws, or unnecessary, or what? What do you think the significance of the case is?

Just interested in generating some conversation.

Thanks.

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#83004 - 03/04/05 06:16 PM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: vvreporter]
MagistraNadramia Offline

CoS HighPriestess

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 5845
Loc: Hell's Kitchen, NYC
I can't give an opinion on the facts or evidence in this incident, obviously, because all any of us know about it is via the media. The courts will decide what happened.

My opinion of hate crime in general is that it is an unnecessary complication of the law. The victim here says he was hit with a metal pipe because he is public about his Satanism; surely the law already provides stringent penalties for assault with a deadly weapon. Unless self-defense is a factor, I don't think the perpetrators' motives should determine the level of prosecution. Throw the book at them.

However, despite my general viewpoint regarding hate crime, I feel that if the law is determined to provide extra penalties for crimes against minority groups, then as a minority adherents of Satanism deserve the same protection as followers of any other religion.
_________________________
Hail Satan!

Magistra Peggy Nadramia

Please email me with your membership questions - PMs may not be answered.
www.churchofsatan.com
HPNadramia@churchofsatan.com

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#83005 - 03/04/05 06:19 PM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: vvreporter]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10129
I can only concur with High Priestess Nadramia on this issue.

Hate crime is a redundancy. Any violent crime is motivated by either casual disregard for another combined with another motive (such as desire for money in the case of robbery), or hatred for the individual based on personal or impersonal motives.

Whether an individual commits a violent crime based on desire for personal gain, personal vendetta, or impersonal hatred of a category of persons, is irrelevant to the result of his actions. If a person has committed violent crime, he deserved harsh prosecution, usually harsher than most of them get.

However, if the law is written in such a way that additional penalty is given for impersonal attacks, i.e. hate crimes, then it should be applied equally, including to unpopular minorities such as Satanists.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#83006 - 03/04/05 06:42 PM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: vvreporter]
Magister_Lang Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 5822
Loc: I-BLISS!
I would have to say that the idea of hate crimes is irrelevant to the act itself. It is not the thought or emotion (this being hate) that should be illegal, it should simply be the criminal/violent act itself and the criminal should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for that act.

This being said however, as long as their exists hate crime laws, these laws should apply to all citizens no matter what their religion is. No double standards should be made simply because a religion is not of the status quo or that in itself should be regarded as a hate crime.
_________________________
“The world, like a wolf pack is not all the licking of pups and howls by the moonlight. Sometimes there just needs to be a gnashing of teeth and a ripping of flesh to put things back into the natural order of things.”

XLII A.S.

"Magic is a tool and is essentially useless unless it can serve you here and now! Anything else is simply an act in faith and an excuse for failure in the here and now." XLVI A.S. R. Lang

"Chaos is a creation of mankind and does not exist within the uncompromising fascism of natures laws! Everything has order." XLVI A.S R. Lang

"To believe in Chaos one must believe that their is some kind of God who all of a sudden put everything into order! That!, I cannot relate too..."
R. Lang XLVI A.S.

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#83007 - 03/04/05 06:46 PM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: vvreporter]
Mr. Saturday Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 1334
Loc: USA
I'm curious to hear people's thoughts on this case. Or on hate-crime legislation generally?

I'm going to agree with the other posters I've read so far on the issue of hate-crime in general. I am of the opinion that any violent crime towards another human being, regardless of the motive should garner a harsh penalty. Calling a violent crime a "hate crime" regardless of the group relationships between the attacker and victim is redundant.

Is it a good thing Satanism is being protected by such laws, or unnecessary, or what?

While "hate crime" laws themselves are unnecessary, as long as they remain on the books, all minority groups, including those some might find distasteful, should be protected.

What do you think the significance of the case is?

In the case of "Should Satanism be a protected minority under the hate-crime laws?", I think this case will (or rather should) set the precedent until such time as the hate-crime laws are finally removed.
_________________________
Hail Satan!

Mr. Saturday
Media Contact/Warlock - Church of Satan

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#83008 - 03/04/05 07:32 PM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: Mr. Saturday]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Quote:

In the case of "Should Satanism be a protected minority under the hate-crime laws?", I think this case will (or rather should) set the precedent until such time as the hate-crime laws are finally removed.




A quick comment here, if you don't mind, Agent Noir --

This case should be decided on its merits, and its merits alone. The outcome of this case should reflect a thorough legal evaluation of these merits.

In my opinion, under no circumstances should the outcome of this matter be perceived as either general legal recognition or legal dismissal of Satanism as a religion which is protected by either ‘hate crime’ legislation or any other legislation that refers to religion. Regardless of the outcome of this particular case, Satanism is a firmly established religion practiced by people both in the United States and internationally.

If the state shows legal preference to only the most popular creeds, the state sanctions religion, and the bold American experiment wherein all religious preferences are held in equal regard has been severely undermined.

Satanism is a religion, and is falls under the umbrella of all legislation referencing and protecting religion.

The fair and equal treatment of religions that some may perceive as ‘extreme,’ ‘unusual,’ or ‘undesirable’ ensures the equal treatment of all religions. Many of our forefathers sought refuge in America because of sects of Christianity itself were considered ‘undesirable’ by other nations. Traditionally, this tolerance and diversity has been one of our country’s greatest strengths.

In further response to our friendly reporter's general question about hate crimes legislation:

Regarding ‘hate crimes’ laws in general, I agree with others here that they amount to little more than ‘thought-policing,’ and are redundant. While I belong to another minority group which is often targeted by violent criminals and can sympathize with some of the rationales for these laws, from an ideological standpoint, I find them counterproductive and highly vulnerable to exploitation.

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#83009 - 03/04/05 07:46 PM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
Mr. Saturday Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 1334
Loc: USA
Thank you for the clarification, Agent Malebranche. Of course I don't mind the comment. Feel free to elaborate as you see fit.

You beautifully expanded on what I was getting at with my final statement. When I said that the case would set precedent, my assumption was, since Satanism is a recognized religion, that the protection of the law would be supported as would be the case with any other religious group.

I do, however, agree that this particular case should be judged on its own merit.
_________________________
Hail Satan!

Mr. Saturday
Media Contact/Warlock - Church of Satan

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#83010 - 03/05/05 08:54 AM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: vvreporter]
LTalionis Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 10/22/01
Posts: 1214
To add to the eloquent comments above, the hate crime laws are simply redundant from a legal perspective. Generally speaking, with all violent crimes, there already exists a "mens rea" ("evil mind") element; i.e., that the act was knowingly and/or intentionally performed. Thus the redundancy of imposing a specific "thought crime" or 1984-like penalty to crimes which, in most cases, already carry the maximum penalties, such as execution or life in prison without parole.

As with the pro-faith based initiative or the public posting of the ten commandments arguments, the great majority cries for "equal rights" on these issues, not realizing that approval of such measures, by the courts or otherwise, gives the same "equal rights" to minority religions, such as Satanism, to have equal access to public forums or taxpayer funding.

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#83011 - 03/05/05 11:11 AM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: Rev_Malebranche]
vvreporter Offline


Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 4
Agent Malebranche, thanks for your response.

You mentioned that "under no circumstances should the outcome of this matter be perceived as either general legal recognition or legal dismissal of Satanism ..."

I wonder if you -- or anyone reading this -- might elaborate. I understand that Queens police and prosecutors, after investigating the assault, decided to pursue the case as a hate crime. In short, it was of their own volition. Which suggests that society-at-larger is beginning to see Satanism as a legitimate religion, yes? At least, here in New York -- I don't know if this has happened anywhere else in the country.

So are you saying that if a jury deems the defendants not guilty, it should be seen as having nothing to do with jurors' perceptions of Satanism? Don't you think popular perceptions of Satanism will come into play here? If so, how might they?

Incidentally, the defense attorneys have tapped into this general debate over hate crimes laws, painting the Queens DA as taking political correctness too far. Is that a fair criticism?

I appreciate all responses to my query -- I find them very illuminating.

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#83012 - 03/05/05 12:38 PM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: vvreporter]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
I'll try to answer these questions as best I can, and I invite others to add their take.

Quote:

You mentioned that "under no circumstances should the outcome of this matter be perceived as either general legal recognition or legal dismissal of Satanism ..."

I wonder if you -- or anyone reading this -- might elaborate.




Certainly.

This case may succeed, or it may fail. Either way, Satanism remains a valid and established religion. I would hate to see a dismissal of the charges, on the grounds of their merits, be misconstrued as a dismissal of Satanism in general. While I would certainly applaud a court or jury's reaffirmation that all religions are treated equally under the law in America, if they reject the 'hate crime' charge in this specific matter, it may well be for reasons having nothing at all to do with acceptance or rejection of Satanism as a valid religion. The 'hate crime' charge may simply be found to be bogus based on the evidence as presented.

Quote:

I understand that Queens police and prosecutors, after investigating the assault, decided to pursue the case as a hate crime. In short, it was of their own volition. Which suggests that society-at-larger is beginning to see Satanism as a legitimate religion, yes?




Does it? I am pleased that the law enforcement professionals in Queens do acknowledge the fact that Satanism is a religion, deserving fair and equal consideration under the law. However, I won't make any unnecessary assumptions regarding their motives for prosecuting the matter in this way. The most obvious motivations are not always the most accurate motivations.


Quote:

Which suggests that society-at-larger is beginning to see Satanism as a legitimate religion, yes? At least, here in New York -- I don't know if this has happened anywhere else in the country.




In America, we do enjoy certain legal freedoms, and I hope that they are fairly and equally protected. However, having lived both in New York City itself and in rural America, I find it specious to assume that the opinions of everyday New Yorkers accurately reflect changes in American thinking as a whole. New Yorkers experience a dynamic exchange with people radically different from themselves on a daily basis. As such, New Yorkers tend to have a more accurate perspective with regards to what constitutes a threat to their way of life. People in middle America can choose to live in cultural isolation, and almost anything 'different,' any cultural 'bogeyman,' might seem to constitute a threat from that limited perspective. One could argue that ast year's elections are proof of that. Still, with the growing availability of the Internet and other media, cultural isolation is becoming more difficult to maintain. This is a good thing.

Quote:

So are you saying that if a jury deems the defendants not guilty, it should be seen as having nothing to do with jurors' perceptions of Satanism?




I believe we can count on the citizens of New York to rise above popular prejudices and judge this case on the merits of the evidence presented. If the evidence presented is consistent with what defines a hate crime, hopefully they will uphold the charge. If the evidence is not sufficient to warrant the punishments demanded by the 'hate crime' legislation, then perhaps another decision will be reached. New Yorkers are a sophisticated group of people who interact with people of other religions and ethnicities every single day. Catholics and Christians live side by side with Jews, Muslims, atheists, Scientologists, Hare Krishnas and Buddhists. Satanism won’t scare them.

Quote:

Don't you think popular perceptions of Satanism will come into play here? If so, how might they?




I think that the jury will look at the individuals involved. If the victim comes across as a schmuck, they may perceive Satanism itself as a bogus religion, which would be an unfortunate error. If he carries himself well and seems like an intelligent guy who was just minding his own business, they'll likely be far more sympathetic to the notion that he was attacked because he was someone who was believed to be practicing a minority religion.

Quote:

Incidentally, the defense attorneys have tapped into this general debate over hate crimes laws, painting the Queens DA as taking political correctness too far.




If 'too far' means rightfully perceiving Satanism as a religion deserving of the same legal considerations as any other, I would suggest that the defense attorneys are taking a highly intolerant position.

Is taking something 'too far' merely suggesting something that the majority disagrees with? That's mob rule, not justice.

Quote:

Is that a fair criticism?




I would say that hate crime laws themselves might be taking political correctness 'too far.' As long as these laws are on the books, however, enforcing them fairly and equally is the responsibility of the prosecutors.

Quote:

I appreciate all responses to my query -- I find them very illuminating.




You are quite welcome. I hope myself and others are able to provide you with what you are seeking.


Edited by Agt_Malebranche (03/05/05 08:10 PM)

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#83013 - 03/05/05 12:46 PM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: vvreporter]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Based on what info has appeared in the media, I have several problems with this case.

It is especially offensive to me that he would drag the Church of Satan into it under false pretenses. If I’m not mistaken, he FALSELY claimed to be affiliated with the Church of Satan.

Also, I cringe whenever anyone calling themselves a “Satanist” assumes the victim role AS A “SATANIST” in any context, especially regarding anything short of institutionalized persecution.

Anyone who considers themselves a Satanist should be streetwise enough to avoid a situation like this in the first place, and have the dignity to not play the persecuted martyr card if they do find themselves there.

That is not to say the victim is to blame, but that a case of someone being attacked because they dress a certain way, have a certain skin color, etc. should be treated no differently than someone who is attacked because they were vulnerable or in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Personally, I reject the whole concept of “hate crime” and the privileged victim mentality that goes with it.

What difference does it make if the victim is a Muslim, Jew, Christian, Sikh, or a Scientologist, or because they were staggering home drunk? Someone committed a heinous act and the perpetrators should be swiftly punished to the full measure permitted by law.

I also think “hate crime” statutes are inconsistently applied.

Are hoodlums who “roll” bums prosecuted for hate crimes? They hate bums. Homeless people are an economic minority class.

Are anti-racist punk rockers prosecuted for hate crimes if they beat up a skinhead? They did it because they hate racists – even though, theoretically, in the USA you have the right to be a racist as long as you don’t break the law.

Are a group of African Americans prosecuted for hate crimes if they assault a white kid? If there is a case of this happening I have not heard about it. Please tell me if there is because I would rather be corrected than be wrong.

Why isn’t rape treated as a hate crime instead of just rape?

Also, Satanism is a legitimate religion whether the majority of people see it that way or not.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#83014 - 03/05/05 05:50 PM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: Svengali]
vvreporter Offline


Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 4
Thanks, Svengali, for your input.

Reading it raised some questions for me. You say any self-described Satanist shouldn't "play the persecuted martyr card." Are you saying that is what the Queens Satanist did when he reported his assault?

If so, I'm a bit confused. I'm reading, as part of my research for this piece, the Satanic Bible. Never read it before and it's interesting ...

One thing that struck me was the passage in the Book of Lucifer that says, "A Satanist practices the motto, 'If a man smite thee on the cheek, smash him on the other!' Let no wrong go unredressed." There is also the sentiment, "Make yourself a Terror to your adversary ...."

Isn't that what the Queens Satanist has done by reporting the assault? Now, the assailants are in big trouble, I'm sure more than they ever imagined ....

Your thoughts?

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#83015 - 03/05/05 07:39 PM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: vvreporter]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:

Thanks, Svengali, for your input.

Reading it raised some questions for me. You say any self-described Satanist shouldn't "play the persecuted martyr card." Are you saying that is what the Queens Satanist did when he reported his assault?

If so, I'm a bit confused. I'm reading, as part of my research for this piece, the Satanic Bible. Never read it before and it's interesting ...

One thing that struck me was the passage in the Book of Lucifer that says, "A Satanist practices the motto, 'If a man smite thee on the cheek, smash him on the other!' Let no wrong go unredressed." There is also the sentiment, "Make yourself a Terror to your adversary ...."

Isn't that what the Queens Satanist has done by reporting the assault? Now, the assailants are in big trouble, I'm sure more than they ever imagined ....

Your thoughts?




I don’t know enough details of the case to say whether that what he was doing or not. To be honest I only read one or two brief articles on the case, and was speaking in general terms. I don’t know who was the first to claim the victim was targeted because he was a “Satanist” - the victim, the victim’s lawyer, witnesses, or the perpetrators?

I seem to recall there was some personal history between the victim and the assailants - if so, I would ask whether or not there was opportunity for him to avoid or de-escalate the situation, or if he was comporting himself in a manner that would result in a negative response from them. That would not absolve the assailants of their guilt; only detract from sympathy for the victim.

Again, I am not trying to blame the victim here, but it is common sense not to draw negative attention to one’s self in a bad neighborhood, or aggravate potentially violent people.

Whatever the case, I am not of the opinion that it is somehow a greater wrong of them to target him because of his religion than it would be for more arbitrary motives.

Yes, you could say he was getting his retaliation by appealing to the authorities, which is the correct and legal way to redress this kind of thing in our society - especially by pushing it as a “hate crime” rather than a lesser assault charge – since it is possible for him to do so.

The penalty for any assault should be as severe as it would be for an alleged “hate crime.”
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#83016 - 03/05/05 07:51 PM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: vvreporter]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Another thing, anyone can self-apply the label “satanist” – that does not make them one.

A Satanist would have been more likely to avoid or negotiate their way out of the situation altogether before they became a victim.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#83017 - 03/05/05 08:12 PM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: vvreporter]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10129
Incidentally, the defense attorneys have tapped into this general debate over hate crimes laws, painting the Queens DA as taking political correctness too far. Is that a fair criticism?

I had not heard that, but to be cynically honest, that is precisely the sort of response I'd expect.

No defense attorney worth his salt would even dream of arguing that prosecuting a white supremacist under hate crimes laws for the offense of assaulting a Jewish individual is taking political correctness too far, for the precise reason that it would be politically incorrect to suggest that. In our modern social climate, it is now entirely unacceptable to almost everyone to discriminate against someone based on their race, gender, or white-light based religion; even homosexuality is quickly gaining ground in its social acceptability and political protection. However, a plurality if not a majority of Americans still hold the notion that it is acceptable to discriminate in one fashion or another against atheists, Satanists, and anyone who they perceive to be opposed to white-light based religions. I believe I read a statistic recently that while a little more than 30% of Americans said they would not vote for an otherwise qualified Muslim for President, over 50% said they would not vote for an otherwise qualified atheist.

My most honest view is that a great many political trends are taking political correctness too far, including hate crimes. However, as long as the law stands, it would be an inversion of justice to selectively apply it. To suggest that attacking certain categories of people warrants additional punishment, but attacking another category of person under similar circumstance does not, would appear to be itself opposed to the apparent ideology behind hate crime legislation.

I agree with Agent Malebranche, that the drive of the majority to create such "equal protection" laws for popular minorities has unintended consequences in that it will permit unpopular minorities to take advantage of the same.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#83018 - 03/06/05 10:07 AM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: vvreporter]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
Aside from the questions you posed, I think this entire debate displays the diversity and individualism that is the defining factor of Satanism (black nail polish be damned.)

Many who answered also had the rare and wonderful ability to say "I'm not sure," which is a hallmark of wisdom, and an indicator of genuine thought.

The fact that we don't generally welcome victim status in order to promote either ourselves or an agenda shows a level of integrity that few, if any, can match.

Welcome to the place where martyrs don't stand a chance.

Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#83019 - 03/07/05 12:01 PM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: vvreporter]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
vvreporter,

I recieved your message, but had a glitch when responding.

YES to everything.

Feel free to contact me via email: priestofmendes@yahoo.com
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#83020 - 03/07/05 12:11 PM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: Svengali]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
Ditto. Please contact me at jack_malebranche@yahoo.com

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#83022 - 03/08/05 08:31 PM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: vvreporter]
Magister_Harris Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
Quote:



So are you saying that if a jury deems the defendants not guilty, it should be seen as having nothing to do with jurors' perceptions of Satanism? Don't you think popular perceptions of Satanism will come into play here? If so, how might they?





If members of the jury are able to properly comprehend their job, then neither "popular" (meaning "inaccurate") or correct perceptions of Satanism would come into play. Jurors will simply look at the evidence and decide if the defendants are guilty or not. However, as Satanists, we recognize the inability of many people to let go of any misinformation they may have been fed over the course of their own lifetime. So, it is quite probable that the members of this jury will prejudice themselves.

Will it affect many of us at the end of the day? No. I feel that the outcome of this case will only have real meaning to Mr. Romano. Satanists know how to adapt and change within the confines of this very dynamic world in which we live. And while I feel that the law should apply to us just as it applies to any other "minority" group, if, for whatever reason, it doesn't, we'll be just fine. The way we are perceived by the masses is virtually irrelevant. Most of the masses don't know who we are. They only know of a word... a word that they lack any real understanding of, and because of that, they fear it. That word, of course, is Satanism.
_________________________
Hail the Citizens of the Infernal Empire!
Hail Satan!
Magister David Harris
Host - Hate Speech Radio
http://www.hatespeechradio.com

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#83023 - 03/09/05 06:25 AM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: Magister_Harris]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
Quote:

So are you saying that if a jury deems the defendants not guilty, it should be seen as having nothing to do with jurors' perceptions of Satanism? Don't you think popular perceptions of Satanism will come into play here? If so, how might they?







While one can never underestimate the stupidity of the masses, modern jury selection techniques should prevent such a thing.

Also, just becuase we neither accept nor embrace the en vogue status of "victim" doesn't mean there isn't an occasional situation where prejudice effects us. How we deal with this is as different and defining as our distaste for the status in the first place.

Personally, I get pissed when tax money is used to perpetuate discrimination: When police or any law enforcement hires "cult experts" to train those involved with public safety, and our tax money pays for misinformation, that can cause genuine harm. I am researching a woman who trains cops and likens Satanists to al Queda. Her reasoning is religious, she feels we are linked by a spiritual error, but that isn't made clear in her teaching. I don't want to bump into the cop who lost a buddy on 9/11 and has taken this woman's class, and I sure don't want my tax dollars sponsoring it.


I get pissed when those in authority haphazardly use Satanic terms as a derogatory when explaining genuine bad acts that have no connection to Satanism. Its a cheap and easy shot that perpetuates myths under the guise of genuine authority.

However, if this effects me it is my responsibility to adapt and overcome, or deal with it. If I choose to address these issues I do it on behalf of me and mine, not for some "movement." I get to measure my success in dealing with these things by the quality of my life.

Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#83024 - 03/09/05 08:34 PM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: vvreporter]
DBlackthorne Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 2105
Loc: The Infernal Empire
In my opinion, I think it should be established that responsibility for the personal behavior of a member of the Church of Satan, or by one who agrees with our principles, rests solely on the shoulders of that particular individual. It is important to determine what is appropriate for the given environment, and to utilize one's own wisdom to gain the most satisfying experience. Our philosophy demands self-determination and personal responsibility.

It should be noted that Satanists practice the principle of reciprocation, and adhere to the adage: "When walking in open territory, bother no-one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop, If he does not stop, destroy him."(11th Satanic Rule of The Earth, Anton Szandor LaVey). We are law-abiding, and will pursue justice through whatever rational and legal means that are available. This "destruction" - a dramatic way to frame the idea of victory over the assailant - may be achieved through self-defense either verbally, through ritual psychodrama and symbolism, and even via legally appropriate physical force, until a sense of justice is attained. Justice for the Satanist is based on the principle that the punishment should fit in kind and degree the crime - Lex Talionis.

If someone attacks an individual based upon a 'hatred' of their religion, then all legal means necessary should be taken to punish the perpetrator, regardless of which particular religion is involved. State retribution should be swift for any unwarranted attack, but now, since there is specification for so-called "hate crimes", a Satanist should take advantage of this option as well. I think the obvious reason why this case is garnering so much attention is because of the professed philosophy of Mr. Romano. It seems to be a first in legal history.

Overall, the incident seems to fit the definition of a "hate crime," even though the defense attorney would seek to put a spin on it so as to not have his clients face such a charge, which would carry a heavier sentence. Was it determined whether the thugs were members of a Christian church? Imagine that - then it may be considered a "Christian crime".

Such events just go to show the types which are attracted to that form of belief system, who might use it as a convenient excuse for aberrant behavior. I am sure these cretins will meet with due punishment, via the legal system as well as the ritual chamber, and being that they so richly deserve it, I am sure Mr. Romano will channel his rage to achieve satisfying and justified vengeance.

However, Satanists think it important to be aware of one's environment, and adapt accordingly in order to avoid unnecessary negative interaction. If one chooses to dress in an overtly theatrical manner, one should be prepared for possible reactions from the herd and be prepared to defend one's position if need be. Donning an inverted cross in a largely Catholic neighborhood is probably not using one's best judgment, especially if you understand that there might be some aggressive Christian bullies about.

With very few worthy exceptions, Satanists tend to avoid ostentatious types, simply because such a display is considered to be pretentious. Unless theindividual is some sort of performance artist on stage, it would appear rather inappropriate, irrelevant, and even ridiculous, giving outsiders theimpression that members of the Church of Satan are just involved for shock value. The axiom, "There is a time and place for everything" applies here.
_______________

* {Posted with permission from Magistra Nadramia}.

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#83025 - 03/26/05 02:24 AM Re: Curious about the Queens hate crimes case [Re: vvreporter]
Starr Offline


Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 13
Loc: Ny, New York
NOTE: Only Moderators and members of the Priesthood are allowed to reply to topics posted here. All other replies will be deleted.


Edited by MagisterParadise (03/26/05 02:55 AM)

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