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#85697 - 03/17/05 04:34 PM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Svengali]
Bugbear Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 38
If that guy in UVRAYs post showed up on my door, I'd cough up a fin to watch him mow my lawn.

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#85698 - 03/17/05 09:56 PM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Creed]
Gileyd Offline


Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Leeds, UK
Quote:

Israel is a Jewish state...right?




The 52nd state maybe.

But seriously, it is amusing when you read about it and take it on face value, but Israel has one of the most technologically advanced and disciplined army in the world. Not to mention that they make their recruits undergo brutal physical, psychometric and personality evaluations. Take it from me as someone who did a years service in the IDF, they don't miss much in their evalutations. Having been in a state of war for the last 50+ years, they need to know exactly who they are sending to the forefront.

I'm certain there is more to what meets the eye if they have associated D&D with weak personalities. I don't know how seriously people take it abroad, but in Israel they take it REALLY seriously. They spend every waking moment thinking and planning their "alter-ego" to near obssesion. It wouldn't suprise me if one of these D&D guru's suddenly slipped into "character" in the middle of a patrol in Hamas infested Gaza and did something stupid.
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me. - The Sith Code (George Lucas)

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#85699 - 03/18/05 12:04 AM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: reprobate]
fatebender Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 537
Loc: Sin City
Quote:

See, most of the people who play this game are half-wits who live in an escapist fantasy world. Most.




Majority is a big factor in the Israeli Army, where service is mandatory for all citizens. They probably don't have time to make considerations for the random intelligent person into roleplaying.

Quote:

Now, if they become obsessed with the fantasy world, or with the stupid rules and all the numbers, then that becomes a problem. I can't stand those people. But they're not all there is to the player base of this kind of game.




This happens just as often (or more) with television and books. I've personally met several so-called incarnations of fictional characters, from Merlin or Aragorn, to Buffy the Vampire Slayer and a whole bunch of various "pagan gods." These people are just bored with life as they know it, and seek to add an extra dimension through assuming a fantasy persona. The same thing goes for conspiracy theorists, end times Christians, and other people who thrive on alternatives to what they consider the daily grind.
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#85700 - 03/18/05 01:27 AM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Svengali]
Noel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1220
Loc: Amerika
The Israeli, who believe in a Big Sky Daddy, and believe they are God's chosen people, are getting picky about being detached from reality. H-I-L-A-R-I-O-U-S!

Seems like Israel is just a legitimized cult compound to me.

EDIT: Also, aren't there enough psychological tests in existence for the IDF to filter out possible nutjobs without worrying about RPGs? Seems a tad redundant.

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#85701 - 03/18/05 02:22 AM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Noel]
Caesar Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 2381
Seems like Israel is just a legitimized cult compound to me.

That's a pretty broad statement. I've heard argruments to the contrary, emphasizing how actually secular the nation is. However, supposedly a semi-secret plan is laid out for the reconstruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, so unless one is there and connected, who knows?
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#85702 - 03/18/05 05:51 AM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Grima Offline


Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Netherlands
That is just scary...stop the madness!
But seriously I used to role-play but I quit some time ago because some of these people have indeed 'lost contact'. People who dress up and role-play for hours on end just don't seem right to me really. It's escapism, if you're a total failure in life it's easy to make a new world and immerse yourself in it.
Me, I still like fantasy but I live in this world and not some created one. I change my surroundings to suit my needs, something these people will never learn. I have my own total-environment I live in but it is still located on this planet!
Some medication and/or therapy would be in order for most of these people. You really are very weak-minded if a game (yes it is a game kiddos!) detaches you from reality.

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#85703 - 03/18/05 06:33 AM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Noel]
Gileyd Offline


Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Leeds, UK
Quote:

The Israeli, who believe in a Big Sky Daddy, and believe they are God's chosen people, are getting picky about being detached from reality. H-I-L-A-R-I-O-U-S!Seems like Israel is just a legitimized cult compound to me.




Considering about 70% of the population of Israel is non-practising/secular/aethist, and most of the minority who are religious don't get conscripted at all, that's a load of BS.

Quote:


EDIT: Also, aren't there enough psychological tests in existence for the IDF to filter out possible nutjobs without worrying about RPGs? Seems a tad redundant.




If you see my previous reply above, you would note that there are. Plenty.
_________________________
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me. - The Sith Code (George Lucas)

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#85704 - 03/18/05 07:31 AM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: TrojZyr]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
Quote:

In any case, I think the IDF is barking up this tree the wrong way. If they plan to go after recruits with 'weak personalities,' they need to go after more people than just D&Ders.




Agreed.

Like I said before. I don't think it's D&D that's the problem. Stating flatly that someone that plays D&D, has a weak personality, smacks of a hasty generalisation.

I agree with Rev. Svengali on the point that I share a similar dislike, although not as profound, for the human element he is referring to. These types are most often found in comic book stores, have massive collections of action figures (fetiches), and usually smell strongly of flat Mountain Dew. In fact, you can find unkempt contemptable human oxygen thieves to hate, anywhere.

However, the aforementioned minority of players is not indicative of the majority of D&D players. Since the video game industry took hold, D&D, and similar games, can be both a creative, and profitable outlet, and have expanded far beyond the scope of these snot-nosed weekend woodland wizards.

And as far as comparing role-players to actors. Well it's not a far stretch, it's just that one group gets filmed and paid to pretend to be other people, and the other does it for recreation. Hell, the actor Vin Deisel, once played, and still plays, Dungeons and Dragons. Look's like all that D&D role-playing payed off... in the millions. In fact, I would encourage all actors to play RPG's. Perhaps it would improve the acting of some of these people that get paid millions, yet have all the acting ability of bowl of luke-warm oatmeal. I feel cheated everytime I see Keanu Reeves name in the credits of some movie. I can't help but know that somewhere someone had their valuable time wasted by that hack.

So I just can't buy the line that a psychologist, that didn't have an ulterior motive, would go so far as to broadbrush D&D players as simpletons. In fact, one could draw a simlarity between role-play and the magical rituals children engage in.

D&D is popular in the military because it doesn't require much more than a peice of paper and a pencil. You can take it with you, it's durable, doesn't take up much space, and it relieves stress.

Heh. I wonder if IDF D&D players use a dreidle to play their games...


Edited by Felstorm (03/18/05 07:38 AM)
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#85705 - 03/18/05 10:17 AM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Noel]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:

EDIT: Also, aren't there enough psychological tests in existence for the IDF to filter out possible nutjobs without worrying about RPGs? Seems a tad redundant.




Maybe they found a consistent correlation.
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#85706 - 03/18/05 10:43 AM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Svengali]
Ortrud Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 252
Loc: NYC
First of all, I'd like to thank Mr. Svengali for an excellent, thought provoking, and well-written post!

After reading everything, including the article in YnetNews, I can understand where the IDF is coming from. If it weren't for the nutjobs, the whole subject of D&D would probably never have arisen, it would simply be another game people play. However, if a kid is telling his recruiter that he's into D&D, without being asked, it does seem like a trait unbecoming in a soldier.

I would be interested to know how the subject is approached. If the recruiter asks "what kinds of games do you play in your spare time?", or "what are your hobbies"?, and the recruit answers D&D as being among them, then it is unfair to overreact.

On the other hand, if the recruit shows up wearing a cape and brandishing a broadsword, or,if D&D is his only pasttime, then the alarm should sound.

I believe the IDF has the right to be paranoid, though. I could never be in the military because I would question every rule and make my own decisions based on my conscience. This, coupled with a large amount of creative energy, and the strong tendency to dress in silly clothes, probably wouldn't fly in a military environment.

So, my reaction is : the IDF can screen recruits any way they choose, but labeling all D&D players as "weak-minded" is unfair. To me, "weak-minded" suggests that a person would follow orders easily. Isn't that what the military desires?

When it comes to D&D in the IDF, young recruits should follow the Rule :
IF THEY DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL!

HAIL SATAN! (But don't dress like Him in front of your recruiting officer)
Ortrud

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#85707 - 03/18/05 03:39 PM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Svengali]
Noel Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1220
Loc: Amerika
Yeah, I heard D&D players draw a castle, not a house, in the House-Tree-Person Test.

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#85708 - 03/18/05 03:55 PM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Svengali]
Hazel Offline


Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 143
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
I think it's a little closeminded to shut off an entire group of people, most of whom have jobs and are usually nice guys, because they have a hobby that requires a little more thought and imagination than model ship building.

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#85709 - 03/18/05 08:02 PM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Noel]
Gileyd Offline


Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Leeds, UK
Quote:

Yeah, I heard D&D players draw a castle, not a house, in the House-Tree-Person Test.




Haha, or a Viking ship.

I would have to agree with Reverend Svengali, the IDF must have just found a very strong correlation between the D&D playing and qualities for a weak personality. Maybe it stems from the fact that the more... "dedicated" D&D players just aren't happy with themselves and would rather create a fantasy alter-ego than actually take responsibility and fix what they don't like or such.
_________________________
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me. - The Sith Code (George Lucas)

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#85710 - 03/18/05 08:06 PM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Hazel]
Gileyd Offline


Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Leeds, UK
Quote:

I think it's a little closeminded to shut off an entire group of people, most of whom have jobs and are usually nice guys, because they have a hobby that requires a little more thought and imagination than model ship building.




I don't think anyone is disputing that they are nice guys or not, or capable of earning a living - just that they aren't "Elite" material. When it comes to recruiting soldiers in a time of war, I say let the military do what they want. I'm sure most D&D players would rather be left alone in their rooms than drafted to the field anyway.
_________________________
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me. - The Sith Code (George Lucas)

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#85711 - 03/18/05 10:09 PM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Gileyd]
Hazel Offline


Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 143
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to say that they aren't capable in times of stress and life-threatening danger? Hey, they simulate it enough in D&D games. If they don't meet the requirements to join the military, then fine. That's a good reason not to let them join the military. However, if they do, and they're not allowed to join simply because they play Dungeons and Dragons, then that simply is not right. Does playing D&D really impair someone from serving and protecting their country?

Also, in Israel, everyone joins the military. It's very close to college there. People who refuse to join are usually shunned or at least looked down upon.

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