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#85712 - 03/19/05 05:21 AM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Hazel]
RobertE Offline


Registered: 08/31/03
Posts: 607
Loc: Michigan
Quote:

Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to say that they aren't capable in times of stress and life-threatening danger?




This is just a personal opinion, but it is based upon my small amount of time within the US military: Any country's military has one obligation and objective, to destroy the enemy. It's that simple. Anything which they have deemed to consider a threat to their service members completing that objective, they try to limit as much as is possible so as not to endanger their members' lives unnecessarily.

The IDF, for whatever reasons, has deemed those that play D&D such an endangerment and has taken what they believe to be the necessary steps for correcting the situation.

Quote:

Does playing D&D really impair someone from serving and protecting their country?




No where in that article did it state that D&D players were denied the ability to serve and protect their state. It specifically states that they're kept from elite units and are considered unfit for anything but a low level security clearance.

The US military may deem fit to deny people anything but a low level clearance for nothing more than numerous speeding tickets or using recreational drugs a few times while an adolescent. Does either "really impair someone from serving and protecting their country?"

Quote:

Also, in Israel, everyone joins the military. It's very close to college there. People who refuse to join are usually shunned or at least looked down upon.




You may wish to read that other member's posts more closely, the person you're addressing has stated that they've already served time in the Israeli military. As such, I would take their viewpoint on the situation into consideration at a higher level then your own. And you may also wish to do the same.
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#85713 - 03/19/05 11:21 AM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Hazel]
Gileyd Offline


Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Leeds, UK
Quote:

Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to say that they aren't capable in times of stress and life-threatening danger?




Who am I? I was a Sgt. 1st Class in the IDF and spend 11 months in Gaza getting my ass shot at by Hamas sharpshooters. Even so, I've never claimed to be an expert. I simply stated my opinion, which I believe to be a lot more informed than most.

Quote:

they simulate it enough in D&D games




You cannot seriously compare being under fire from Islamic Fundamentalists, not knowing if the house you're about to walk into is booby-traped, or if that man walking up to you ignoring your warnings has an explosive device strapped around his waist, to walking around a field with your friends waving plastic swords around pretending to hunt a dragon or whatever.

Quote:


TheyIf they don't meet the requirements to join the military, then fine. That's a good reason not to let them join the military. However, if they do, and they're not allowed to join simply because they play Dungeons and Dragons, then that simply is not right.




There is more than 1 question on the "Elite" criteria, and it sure as heck isn't "Do you play D&D?". Like has been stated many times, it's obviously a case of correlation.

Quote:


Also, in Israel, everyone joins the military. It's very close to college there. People who refuse to join are usually shunned or at least looked down upon.




Again, that's nonsense. I'm telling you that as an Israeli Citizen, an ex-IDF soldier and as someone who learnt how to use google.

There are countless reasons the IDF exempt people from joining, the most popular are if you are religious you can be exempt to study Torah, if you an Arab you can be exempt and if you had another member of your family killed in action you are exempt. Not too mention that more often than not, they even exempt people who simply stated they don't want to join - there are PLENTY of willing volunteers already. It costs Israel millions to invest in soldiers, nevermind Elites, and they don't need any citzen wasting their time if they don't want to be there.

Maybe you should do some research before embaressing yourself in future.
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#85714 - 03/19/05 11:24 AM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Gileyd]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8898
Thanks for the intelligent, informed, and first hand perspective.

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#85715 - 03/19/05 11:32 AM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Quaark]
Gileyd Offline


Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Leeds, UK
Quote:

Thanks for the intelligent, informed, and first hand perspective.




My pleasure. Just want to pass on some information so everyone can make a more informed decision.
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me. - The Sith Code (George Lucas)

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#85716 - 03/19/05 12:40 PM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Gileyd]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Excellent post!

Thank You.
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#85717 - 03/19/05 01:41 PM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Gileyd]
Hazel Offline


Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 143
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
I apologize for my ignorance.

However there is a difference between LARP and D&D. D&D players do not "walk around in a field with friends waving a plastic sword." That's LARPing.

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#85718 - 03/19/05 01:47 PM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Hazel]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Fantasy role playing is not training.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#85719 - 03/20/05 01:45 AM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Svengali]
Citizen_Parker Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 217
Quote:

D&D people are usually identifiable on sight, and almost always within minutes of their mouths running. There is a consistent aura of retardedness that clings to them like stale cigarette smoke. Only they are unaware of it.




Sadly, you've described them exactly.

*Sigh* It's so hard to find a player who has an above minimum wage job, much less a decent human being you would consider spending more than five minutes with.

The mindless fly to the game, for some odd reason. Meanwhile the productive are usually far too busy to notice the game even exists.

There's probably a psychology paper in there somewhere, but no one who would benefit from such a thing would ever read it. To the rest, it would be too tedius to bother.
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#85720 - 03/21/05 03:17 PM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Svengali]
Dreamwalker Offline


Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 1342
Loc: Colorado Springs
I have only held one published study on this topic in my hands; this is a list of psychological studies found on google. I think some of you may find it interesting, especially those of you interested in psychology papers. Some of the highlights that caught my eye: the tendency of the group, on average, to be more experimenting, liberal, and freethinking, the improvement in writing ability, vocabulary, and structural organization for both high and low level students, as well as increased socialization for those that were shy, a sense of cultural estrangement, a higher percentage of introverts, a higher rating of openness, and considerably less interest on the part of the gamers in mass media. I am not quoting any speculation on the reasons, nor quoting from studies that do not have a control group. This is an interesting link, however, if any of you wish to take a look.

The US military, in conjunction with the military of several other nations, is conducting a study using Neverwinter Nights, a computerized dungeons and dragons game to test its members on certain skills and abilities, including how to

Quote:

manipulate Decision quality, Task effectiveness, Adaptability, Workload, Time pressure and urgency, and Perceived degree of control, in addition to how to measure Decision making strategies, Communication patterns,
Situation assessment / awareness, Teamwork skills, and Role Assignments.




The main purpose of these tests is to measure cultural and personality-based decision making to facilitate teamwork and communications, although I couldn't help but notice other things tested for, including leadership ability.

Quote:

The common objective of these combined projects is to conduct multinational, collaborative experiments designed to capture knowledge about cultural factors for use in military modeling and simulation, system design, personnel selection, and officer training for the full range of Alliance military operations. Participation in this international research effort is open to NATO and Partners for Peace (PfP) nations. Current participation is:

  • Canada Canadian Forces Experimentation Center (CFEC)
  • Norway Norwegian Defence Research Establishment (FFI)
  • Sweden Swedish Defence Research Establishment, Command and Control Division (FOI)
  • United Kingdom Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL)
  • United States US Army Research Laboratory
    US Army Research Institute (ARI)
    US Office of Naval Research (ONR)
    US Naval Air, Training Systems Division (NAVAIR ORL TSD)
  • NATO Allied Command Transformation HQ





The paper goes into great detail on why a computerized dungeons and dragons role-playing game was chosen as the medium. I find it interesting that it lowers the clearance of those in Israel, while over here it is considered a good gauge of many skills, and assesses levels of teamwork.

Myself, I just enjoy the game. It's an amusing diversion, something fun to do. I also go hiking. I go for long walks, I lift weights. I watch sunsets. I love to cook and bake. I enjoy time with my children. I like to read. I draw (ahem, not well, no talent for it, but I enjoy it) I sew, and have recently begun to learn quilting. I do lots of things; just because I enjoy role-playing games does not mean they encompass my entire life. There are many other gamers out there like me, who also have other interests and hobbies.

For the record, I don't smell of stale Mountain Dew (don't drink soda), nor cigarette smoke (I don't smoke.) I am productive; my live-in boyfriend (we've been together for about eight years now) is a network engineer/sys admin, and I am a stay-at-home mom.

My point? The 'gamer stereotype' is just that; a broad set of conceptions based on popular image. It's as silly to me to judge all gamers on this stereotype as it is to use the 'all Satanists wear black trenchcoats', or even 'all computer users are geeks' labels.

I am not the IDF, I don't know what kind of data they have, nor do I know why they would consider a gamer a security risk. It would be interesting to see what exactly they based their decision on.
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#85721 - 03/23/05 02:12 AM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: Felstorm]
blacksnow Offline


Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 16
There is a huge difference between actors and D&D players. Actor must control their mind at all time not to forget their text and be productive when many people around them just watch between two scenes or do only repetitive tasks which don't require a lot of attention. By their ability to perform while others don't have to, they prove without a doubt that they are elites. D&D is just a game, this is not a work, not even a constructive task, since they do nothing concrete. Maybe it helps them develop intellectual assets. But if they never do something concrete, how their would-be assets could help them in the real world? This is not a D&D players who wrote Harry Pother, this is a mother with no employement who decides to find a way to increase her income.

So I'm not surprised that the IDF look suspiciously at people who past their time killing dragons in their mind. Because this is an unfocused activity which aim at nothing but entertain the players. This is a kid game. Who send kids on a battle field?

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#85722 - 03/23/05 02:30 PM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: blacksnow]
Gileyd Offline


Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Leeds, UK
Quote:

Who send kids on a battle field?




Not enough time to answer that question...
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me. - The Sith Code (George Lucas)

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#85723 - 03/23/05 02:38 PM Re: IDF wise to D&D [Re: blacksnow]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>Who send kids on a battle field?

Read some history or even take a look around you.
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#85724 - 03/24/05 01:24 AM the first thought, but on second thought [Re: Svengali]
VKat Offline


Registered: 03/23/05
Posts: 157
Loc: Northern California
My first thought would be, D&D its just a game, harmless. My second thought started with anyone I have ever known that played D&D. I have meet at least ten people who have, none of which are very capable of supporting themselves.

I also I have a question for those who believe that D&D is a sign of a psychological disorder. Would this extend to people who enjoy video games based from D&D? How about military games, or just video games in general?

I myself have put many hours into playing video games that where D&D based. I out grew the interest with the realization that there where better things to do. Besides keeping up with online games like Ever Quest really can take up your entire life.

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#85725 - 03/24/05 04:07 AM Re: the first thought, but on second thought [Re: VKat]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
Quote:

My first thought would be, D&D its just a game, harmless. My second thought started with anyone I have ever known that played D&D. I have meet at least ten people who have, none of which are very capable of supporting themselves.

I also I have a question for those who believe that D&D is a sign of a psychological disorder. Would this extend to people who enjoy video games based from D&D? How about military games, or just video games in general?

I myself have put many hours into playing video games that where D&D based. I out grew the interest with the realization that there where better things to do. Besides keeping up with online games like Ever Quest really can take up your entire life.




It's called the Balance Factor.

Life is a game of juggling things. Your personal life, your professional life, your hobbies, your upkeep, your project, etc. Video games, D&D, all that is great. Just don't let it consume your life. Which shouldn't be a problem anyway considering present company. Indulgence without compulsion. Video games, drawing, hobbies, are what I keep myself occupied with. Video games inspire me and entertain me. My drawing is my creative outlet, and if I have a hankering to sniff some glue, I build a model. I live in a northern, rather inhospitible climate during the winter months. Without my pastimes and art, I'd probably go nuts. I just can't do the things I like to do outdoors because, well water freezes and it makes it real hard to swim in when it's like that.

Yes. Rev. Svengali's peeve people exist. Yes. They suck. But this is true of any individual that lacks balance and sucks at living.

The IDF making a broad brush generalisations of the D&D game and players, is silly and defies logic. It's more akin to the D&D Satan scare of the '80s than science. Yes the D&D creeps exist, and when it comes to the military, it's usually functional young adults that join the military, are then exposed to the game while in the military, and then leave the military with the hobby. I have yet to meet a comic book store headcase (reality detached herdlings) that has joined the military.

Some people paint little useless warplanes, tanks (my favorite), and ships. Some play D&D. And some complain on internet forums.

To each his own.

Context is everything.

Indulgence without compulsion.



Edited by Felstorm (03/24/05 04:12 AM)
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#85726 - 03/24/05 04:10 AM Re: the first thought, but on second thought [Re: VKat]
HammerOfDoubt Offline


Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 479
Loc: Miami, FL
I think it is different with a video game, which is basically an interactive movie. I have played some D&D based video games and one of them is among my favorite games of all time.

LARD and Tabletop p[laying is different from a video game because theyrequire you to sort of create this fantasy world in your mind and get completely lost in your imagination.
Now, I am not saying imagination is bad, but sometimes being so lost in that mind state is not a good quality for military service. I am a writer. I spend a great deal of time in my imaginary world with imaginary people. I know damn well that I would be a horrible soldier because I get distracted so easily.

Also, as Svengali said, the common D&D player gives off this aura of retardedness. They spend lots of money on big fat rulebooks of all kinds, like white-light occultists with no results. I get the same feeling when I run into some of these little-kid Satanists who try to be super-spooky. It's like they are conforming to an idea of nonconformity.

A video game can be played without learning loads of crap or getting lost in a make-believe world. You do not have to pretend you are the person in the game to play. I have met few video gamers that give off that retardedness feel.

And also, remember what Gileyd said about how Israeli players take the games much more seriously than people do here. The IDF's decision seems alright to me.


Edited by HammerOfDoubt (03/24/05 04:21 AM)
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