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#87631 - 03/23/05 12:46 PM Sparta
loki869 Offline


Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 219
Loc: NJ
Last night on the History Channel there was a special about the old city states of Ancient Greece. The largest and most powerful of these city-states were none other than Sparta and Athens. Now while watching this program I began to feel that Sparta was an almost perfect example of a city that functioned on the truest form of Satanic Philosophy.

I am just curious, but does anyone who knows about the Spartans agree?

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#87632 - 03/23/05 01:05 PM Re: Sparta [Re: loki869]
reprobate Offline

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Registered: 06/05/02
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Why Sparta moreso than Athens? Sparta never produced any significant visual art, any of the drama that's remembered today (like the Tragedies, which were written in honor of Dionysos), or any philosophy.

Why either of them moreso than, say, Corinth? That was a seething pit of sodomy and prostitution.

Why Sparta in the first place? Did they enjoy their lives especially more than the Greeks of other cities? What was their motive for their discipline? Spartans were expected to sacrifice themselves to the State -- why would this be Satanic?

Satanism is about life. Each of the Greek cities with a distinctive culture was alive in its own way.
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#87633 - 03/23/05 01:10 PM Re: Sparta [Re: loki869]
Svengali Offline
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The Spartans were aesthetically bleak, they were more Stoic than Epicurean. They were hardcore, but a little too austere, and lacked some of the finer indulgences in life. I think Athens would have been a better place for a Satanist to live – there were more open avenues to indulgence and advancement, and much more going on intellectually – especially during the so-called “Golden Age.” The ideal would have been some fusion of the two.

Rome at its height and Renaissance Italy always struck me as being Satanic high-points in the history of western civilization.
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#87634 - 03/23/05 01:54 PM Re: Sparta [Re: loki869]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
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If you like the Spartans culture you should also check out the Zulu culture. Both are very interesting.

I would not say they were Satanic. Disciplined and skilled I would agree with. Like what has already been stated, if you combine Athens and Spartans together you can get pretty close to being Satanic, a few flaws here and there.

There are a lot of great cultures and people from history that had Satanic traits. I say take what is useful from them all and cast out what is junk.


Edited by Discipline (03/23/05 01:55 PM)
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#87635 - 03/23/05 05:59 PM Re: Sparta [Re: loki869]
Isabel23 Offline
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Registered: 12/17/02
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Sparta had a lot of discipline, and by all accounts produced some excellent warriors and generals.

They accomplished this by use of enforced collectivism. Hence, as pointed out, no art, no leisure -- I don't know if they allowed themselves to have fun. They were certainly hated by the other tribes that they enslaved. One would think that treating one's slaves well would be insurance against rebellion and treachery. Sparta learned this the hard way.
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#87636 - 03/23/05 06:13 PM Re: Sparta [Re: loki869]
Gileyd Offline


Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Leeds, UK
The development of democracy was Athenian, so I would have to add that to the list of ticks Athens had over Sparta in terms of where I think a Satanist would live. What could be more Satanic than the development of a system where you could empower yourself and family to control your own life?

In theory anyway, makes your cringe when you think what "democracy" has become today.
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#87637 - 03/23/05 06:36 PM Re: Sparta [Re: Svengali]
Prometheus Offline
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Registered: 01/25/05
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Quote:

The Spartans were aesthetically bleak, they were more Stoic than Epicurean. They were hardcore, but a little too austere, and lacked some of the finer indulgences in life.




Absolutely, it was somehow a trademark of the Spartans to dispense with the finer pleasures, indulgences & luxury of any kind. The warriors were introduced into this way of life from the very beginning. The individual was expected to limit his needs to a necessary minimum.

For a good reason, our language still reflects this approach nowadays. If something is referred to as 'Spartan', it is mostly meant to be meagre & thrifty.

As regards the political system of Sparta, the focus was always entirely on the collective as whole, instead of on an elite of individuals. That might be on of the reasons why Sparta has often been referred to by Communists as a role model.

Concerning these aspects, I would consider the Spartans as rather un-Satanic.


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#87638 - 03/23/05 08:03 PM Re: Sparta [Re: Prometheus]
loki869 Offline


Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 219
Loc: NJ
I'm sorry but from what I remember reading about the Spartans, they were more based on stratification rather than collectiveness. On the Spartan shields was the symbol of the pyramid. It respresented their belief in hierarchy. Slaves were at the bottom, warriors were in the middle, and the Generals were at the top. Although they did not believe in currency, I wholeheartedly disagree with you considering them the "communists" of their time. If anything the Athenians fit this bill with their "democratic" society that is simply a milder form of Marxism. Everyone has a say, including the weak.

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#87639 - 03/24/05 01:50 AM Re: Sparta [Re: loki869]
HammerOfDoubt Offline


Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 479
Loc: Miami, FL
I am studying to be a teacher, so I have researched many schooling methods and philosophies. Modern schooling is taken after the Sparta model, where a Dictator-teacher led the class in a strictly adhered-to curriculum.
The Athenian model for schooling is more like a library where the Spartan is more like a prison. There were Director-teachers who decided on topics of discussion and things flowed freely from there.
The Athenian model was designed to promote independant thought and innovation, while the Spartan was designed to promote obedience to the state and dissolving of individual will. Which do you think was more Satanic?
There was no place for intellect or art in Sparta. Everything was Military.
Athenian Democracy wasn't very democratic, as slaves did not get a vote. Athens was more of an Elite Democracy, where the top citizens gained freedom and the power of decision making, but things were still stratified. Slaves had some freedoms too, and could sometimes rise up to a Master status. Sparta was stratified only as an ant colony is stratified.
Which do you think is the more natural, Satanic form of stratification?
Sparta was the ANTITHESIS of Satanic ideals. There was no thought or enjoyment or personal freedom or self-empowerment or independance or the natural self-propelled rising-above of true stratification. Everything was OBEY SERVE OBEY OBEY DO NOT THINK OR FEEL OR CREATE HURRAH HURRA HURRAH.
Fuck Sparta.
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#87640 - 03/24/05 05:05 AM Re: Sparta [Re: loki869]
Prometheus Offline
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Registered: 01/25/05
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Quote:

Although they did not believe in currency, I wholeheartedly disagree with you considering them the "communists" of their time.




You got me entirely wrong man, I never said that I actually considered them as communist at all. There is no doubt that they used to have a strict military hierarchy.

Nevertheless, their authoritarian dictatorship constantly intended to erase the self-perception of the single person as an individual. Achievements & ranks in Sparta had more than anything else to do with the single person's maximal contribution to the military success achieved by the organism as a whole.

In so far, a agree with HammerOfDoubt in terms of the political & social order of the Spartans.


Quote:

If anything the Athenians fit this bill with their "democratic" society that is simply a milder form of Marxism. Everyone has a say, including the weak.




Moreover, I disagree with you as concerns the Athenenians & their idea of democracy which differs essentially from our modern-day concept of democracy. The way you put it, as if the Athenian democracy was egalitarian which is absolutely incorrect.

Whether you had the right for political participation depended on your social & economical status, the census & your gender. Slaves & women were per se excluded. Those who occupied leading positions in the political sphere had to prove themselves worthy before by former achievements.

And there it is: Stratification


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Edited by greatguyJAN (03/24/05 05:32 AM)
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#87641 - 03/24/05 06:59 AM Re: Sparta [Re: Prometheus]
reprobate Offline

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Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
You think keeping slaves and excluding women from the democratic franchise is "stratification"?

I would think it's the opposite.
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#87642 - 03/24/05 07:23 AM Re: Sparta [Re: reprobate]
Prometheus Offline
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Registered: 01/25/05
Posts: 1122
Loc: Germany
Quote:

You think keeping slaves and excluding women from the democratic franchise is "stratification"?

I would think it's the opposite.




I agree absolutely with you, this is a concept based on inherited priveleges which contradicts Stratification.
But in this regard the Athenian social order is also very far from being Marxist, as loki869 tends to put it.

What I consider Stratification is the last point that I mentioned, the fact that position & ranks did also depend to a high degree on achievements, capability & productivity.

HS!

*greatguyJAN*



Edited by greatguyJAN (03/24/05 07:24 AM)
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#87643 - 03/24/05 04:37 PM Re: Sparta [Re: loki869]
Rattlesnake Offline


Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Yurop
The Spartans were perfect soldiers and nothing more. Their dicipline alone was what made them different from barbarian tribes of the northern Balkans. They had an oligarchic government (a few rich men) which had brainwashed the population by exploiting its warlike instincts. Those rulers only cared that their soldier-citizens maintain a strong grip on the helot (slave) class, and so they could preserve their wealth.

Athens, on the other hand, was a far more Satanic society as far as the chances for personal accomplishment is concerned. They invented democracy (something a bit bigger than a tribal council) but there are some misconceptions concerning this early form of democracy. It is said that it was less democratic than today's standards because slaves and women had no right to vote. But isn't that what the early United States were like? Also the slaves were not Athenian, most of them were prisoners of war or bought from slave traders of the East.

And Spartans were not that tough. They fought three wars with neigbouring Messana and although they eventually won, their city-state was economically devastated. And they only beated the Athenians after spending every penny in buying Persian weapons and ships. And of course, they lost Athens since briefly after the end of the war, the Athenians revolted. Those constand battles gave an advantage to king Philip of Macedon to conquer the entire Greek peninsula.

Forget Sparta. Buy Athenian bonds instead. They have higher interest and less risk.
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